Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes • Hacker News Board

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#131

Post by q1w2 » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 9:03 AM UTC

tjpnz wrote: post #114

parkingrift wrote: post #10

>Immigration New Zealand (INZ) recently granted 32 visas to people who pledged to invest at least $10m locally over three years and another 76 visas to individuals pledging to invest at least $3m, according to the news website Stuff. > With their visas in hand, investors may apply to compete for spots in New Zealand’s congested MIQ system. A stay in MIQ is a prerequisite for entry to the country, which has been large…

>The visa scheme seems to be an enormous benefit to NZ. This scheme was once touted as a way to jump start the NZ tech sector but it doesn't appear to be having any impact. Those getting the visa might only be in the country a few weeks in a year and their investments are going into companies which haven't done anything innovative in decades. The most scathing part of all is that New Zealand's still a terrible place…

> ...and their investments are going into companies which haven't done anything innovative in decades.

Not all investment sparks innovation - and innovation takes years. I would not expect people investing their life savings to get into NZ to invest in high-risk tech startups, but the investments they make will help the NZ economy all the same.

Investment flow where risk-adjusted returns are highest - that's the nice thing about free markets - you don't have to plan where to put the money - it'll go where it's most demanded.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#132

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 9:13 AM UTC

vanusa wrote: post #30

ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #12

In almost all countries you can buy citizenship if you're rich. You don't even need to know the language. Immigration and all these gimmicks are for peasants only.

In almost all countries you can buy citizenship if you're rich. This isn't about simply "buying citizenship". It's about literally bouncing people who are already citizens out (for the duration of the pandemic).

[deleted]

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#133

Post by roca » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 9:23 AM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #130

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>”Our society has decided that nobody should die from COVID. That’s still the right answer.” This sentiment should terrify you. COVID is serious, but my god, there are so much more dangerous and lethal things out there. You’ve basically just given your government a virtual blank check to do as it pleases so long as the threat is sufficiently scary. >”many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and s…

Hasn't NZ's draconian border restrictions been precisely what has allowed them to avoid the need to impose the types of burdensome local restrictions that threaten these small businesses?

Exactly.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#134

Post by roca » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 9:28 AM UTC

nimbius wrote: post #9

I think the cat was out of the bag when kimdotcom was indicted. New Zealand is bought and paid for by the cloistered elite seemingly against any real argument by the locals. You could make an argument the work here/look see initiative that imported skilled labor was somehow a counter indication of a plutocracy but I think its largely just salt in the wound for the average NZ resident as it ran defense for anyone who…

Counterpoint: Larry Page entered NZ in early 2021 and was placed in a middling MIQ hotel. His people tried to get him moved to one of the best hotels but were unable to do so. Page is the world's fifth richest person. I think this counts against "New Zealand is bought and paid for by the cloistered elite".

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#135

Post by roca » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 9:34 AM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #39

Investor visas are just a distraction. The fundamental problem is that there's any restriction whatsoever on New Zealand's citizens entering their own country. The MIQ system should be abolished, and anyone who helped create it, or who has had enough power in the country to abolish it but chose to let it continue, should be put in prison for human rights violations (specifically, in the Universal Declaration of Human…

The right to return to NZ does not automatically trump all other considerations.

Without MIQ we couldn't have executed our elimination strategy. Probably thousands of people would have died of COVID, or we would have had stronger and longer lockdowns --- probably both --- all highly detrimental to the well-being of people living in NZ.

So why should the right of return take priority over all that?

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#136

Post by zacmps » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 9:36 AM UTC

postingawayonhn wrote: post #120

InvertedRhodium wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would that differ meaningfully from the limited capacity and number of flights to any given location?

Because in the free market airlines provide as many seats are required.

Until they run out of planes

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#137

Post by roca » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 9:37 AM UTC

iandanforth wrote: post #61

Wouldn't it be simpler if you could just pay for N additional spots to be opened by your financing? If MIQ spots are limited due to finances and you can solve that problem that seems like a win-win. If there's an indirectness where the finances go somewhere else and the MIQ pie gets smaller for citizens at the same time, that's obviously going to cause outrage. This seems like one of those rare situations where more…

In practice MIQ capacity has been limited by the number of suitable hotels available, and the difficulty of staffing them. These resources are not very elastic.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#138

Post by zacmps » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 9:38 AM UTC

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #88

lancewiggs wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we abolished MIQ then Aotearoa NZ would be riddled with COVID, many thousands or tens of thousands would have died, many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and society crippled. As it happens less than 50 have died, each one a tragedy, while I’ve just had a lovely Christmas with 3 generations, as many others are around the motu. Sure we had to video call relatives in other countries, but thei…

>”Our society has decided that nobody should die from COVID. That’s still the right answer.” This sentiment should terrify you. COVID is serious, but my god, there are so much more dangerous and lethal things out there. You’ve basically just given your government a virtual blank check to do as it pleases so long as the threat is sufficiently scary. >”many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and s…

> This sentiment should terrify you. COVID is serious, but my god, there are so much more dangerous and lethal things out there. You’ve basically just given your government a virtual blank check to do as it pleases so long as the threat is sufficiently scary.

This is not even slightly true, if you were familiar with the local legislation and political climate you would know that; but you're not.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#139

Post by roca » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 9:40 AM UTC

vanusa wrote: post #30

ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #12

In almost all countries you can buy citizenship if you're rich. You don't even need to know the language. Immigration and all these gimmicks are for peasants only.

In almost all countries you can buy citizenship if you're rich. This isn't about simply "buying citizenship". It's about literally bouncing people who are already citizens out (for the duration of the pandemic).

"Bounced out"? No citizens are being forced to leave the country.

These new visa holders just make it a little bit harder for citizens and residents to enter the country, that's all. Over 200,000 people have gone through MIQ during the pandemic --- that's a lot for a population of 5M. People who wanted to come back since the start of the pandemic have been able to come back.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#140

Post by TMWNN » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 9:42 AM UTC

inter_netuser wrote: post #71

lcpriest wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the NZ bill of rights is applied the same way as other countries. > Section 4 specifically denies the Act any supremacy over other legislation. The section states that Courts looking at cases under the Act cannot implicitly repeal or revoke, or make invalid or ineffective, or decline to apply any provision of any statute made by parliament, whether before or after the Act was passed because it is incons…

why would they include something like that? whats the point of such bill of rights, if it has no supremacy?

As AmericanChopper said, it's mostly irrelevant in the legal sense.

The most important part of stromtium_90's reply is the principle of Parliamentary Sovereignty, the idea that no legislature can do something that a future legislature cannot undo. Every legislature, including the US Congress, follows this principle ... with the exception of the constitution/founding treaty/etc., which is the only thing that is superior to that legislature's power. New Zealand does not have such a document. Neither does the UK. So, theoretically, both countries' parliaments can do anything as long as the action complies with any treaties signed with other nations ... and, of course, the parliaments can always use whatever exit option the treaties provide, if necessary.