Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes • Hacker News Board

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#121

Post by AmericanChopper » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 7:42 AM UTC

tuatoru wrote: post #17

parkingrift wrote: post #10

>Immigration New Zealand (INZ) recently granted 32 visas to people who pledged to invest at least $10m locally over three years and another 76 visas to individuals pledging to invest at least $3m, according to the news website Stuff. > With their visas in hand, investors may apply to compete for spots in New Zealand’s congested MIQ system. A stay in MIQ is a prerequisite for entry to the country, which has been large…

In New Zealand we try to have something called the Rule of Law. The same laws and regulations apply to everyone regardless of wealth or political connection. The rule of law is the key innovation that allowed the industrial revolution to take place bringing the West to its present rich and free lifestyle. Adherence to the rule of law is a major reason why NZ is regularly in the top 5 countries globally for lack of co…

> Adherence to the rule of law is a major reason why NZ is regularly in the top 5 countries globally for lack of corruption

This corruptions indices are pretty much always “corruption perception” indices, as in, New Zealanders consider their country to be less corrupt than other countries, not that it actually is less corrupt than other countries.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#122

Post by bener » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 7:48 AM UTC

silexia wrote: post #35

The solution is simple... Shut down the unnecessary MIQ system. Everyone has had the opportunity to get vaccinated and risks for those is now back to as low as it was prior to the pandemic.

I think it's lucky you aren't in charge. None of it is simple and you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#123

Post by AmericanChopper » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 7:53 AM UTC

lcpriest wrote: post #64

aunty_helen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, the entire MIQ program is a gross violation of the bill of rights and several international treaties. So I don't think the rule of law goes very far in NZ as they seem to just handwave it away and most people in NZ couldn't care less because of the fear they have from living reasonably isolated for the past year and a half. NZers should expect to be on the hook for at least a few class action lawsuits for d…

I don't think the NZ bill of rights is applied the same way as other countries. > Section 4 specifically denies the Act any supremacy over other legislation. The section states that Courts looking at cases under the Act cannot implicitly repeal or revoke, or make invalid or ineffective, or decline to apply any provision of any statute made by parliament, whether before or after the Act was passed because it is incons…

The Bill of Rights Act in New Zealand is mostly irrelevant. It is an ordinary piece of legislation, and it places no restrictions whatsoever on what future legislation may or may not contain.

Their early lockdowns were unlawful, but they fixed that in a few days with new legislation. A court actually ruled they were initially unlawful, but said that was OK because the government had good intentions.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#124

Post by pixel_fcker » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 7:57 AM UTC

vanusa wrote: post #92

laingc wrote: post #40

As a New Zealander, I am super supportive of easier pathways for wealthy people to bring themselves, their expertise, their connections, and their money here. Furthermore, my anecdotal observation is that articles in The Guardian about New Zealand reflect not reality, but rather the talking points of a very small subset of the hard Left of our political class. I know that this is The Guardian’s line in general, but i…

As a New Zealander, I am super supportive of easier pathways for wealthy people to bring themselves, their expertise, their connections, and their money here. Do you support denying re-entry to people who are already citizens as a means of doing that?

You said:

> Do you support denying re-entry to people who are already citizens as a means of doing that?

Which implies the people entering on these visas are taking places away from someone else but they’re not, they’re entering the same lottery system as everyone else. Unless you’re suggesting that only citizens should be allowed to enter the country?

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#125

Post by Aerroon » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 8:06 AM UTC

m4x wrote: post #81

Aerroon wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Incredible seeing democracies like Australia and NZ tell their own citizens “no, you cant come home”. To be fair, it's not their first dance with authoritarian measures. Both countries also employ widespread censorship for movies and video games among other things. Perhaps it shouldn't be that unexpected that they would cross the line on this too.

If there's widespread censorship then I assume you can give some supporting examples? The only notable "movie" that I'm aware of being censored in NZ was the live stream of the Christchurch mosque shooting that killed 51 people.

In New Zealand to publish a game or a movie you must have it go through the office of film and literature classification. If it is not classified then it is banned by default.

One example of a relatively recent ban of something popular is the anime High School DxD. Ikki Tousen was also banned. They seem to ban a lot of Japanese made stuff.

Postal 2 is a game that was explicitly refused classification. This doesn't just mean that selling the game is illegal - afaik possessing the game is also illegal.

But ultimately what's banned isn't as important, because they're operating with a whitelist. Everything's banned by default until they get classified. If every country operated a system like that then it's likely most games and movies either wouldn't get published in NZ or would be published on a delay.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#126

Post by GekkePrutser » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 8:16 AM UTC

InvertedRhodium wrote: post #76

GekkePrutser wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not always vacation. Many people have close family abroad that they want you see. Sometimes with medical issues so they may not get another chance. I wouldn't travel if vacation was the only reason. Especially if I were living in NZ which is one of the most beautiful places on earth IMO It's also kinda unfair to expect people to have seen Omikron coming :) with the distance to Europe most people from here in NZ…

> It's not always vacation. Many people have close family abroad that they want you see. How is that not a vacation?

I consider a vacation to be something where you sit in the sun on a beach purely for fun.

Visiting family abroad is usually done on vacation time at work but it's much more necessary.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#127

Post by GuB-42 » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 8:45 AM UTC

tuatoru wrote: post #17

parkingrift wrote: post #10

>Immigration New Zealand (INZ) recently granted 32 visas to people who pledged to invest at least $10m locally over three years and another 76 visas to individuals pledging to invest at least $3m, according to the news website Stuff. > With their visas in hand, investors may apply to compete for spots in New Zealand’s congested MIQ system. A stay in MIQ is a prerequisite for entry to the country, which has been large…

In New Zealand we try to have something called the Rule of Law. The same laws and regulations apply to everyone regardless of wealth or political connection. The rule of law is the key innovation that allowed the industrial revolution to take place bringing the West to its present rich and free lifestyle. Adherence to the rule of law is a major reason why NZ is regularly in the top 5 countries globally for lack of co…

Unless I didn't understand the situation, these "wealthy" visas are the law.

Rule of law doesn't mean the law can't make a difference between the rich and the poor, in fact, it is very common in tax law (the rich pay more taxes), but not only.

Rule of law just means "no corruption", essentially. That the laws are the only criteria for judging people, it is not a discussion about the fairness of the law itself. It there is a "no parking" sign, then under the rule of law, no one will be allowed to park, including Bob, who will be fined/towed like everyone else. But if the sign says "no parking, except for Bob", then Bob will be allowed to park even if people find it unfair.

Usually, high rule of law countries are also democracies, so laws are made by elected officials, or even directly by people, and fairness is an important part of the lawmaking process. Indeed, people are usually reticent to apply laws they feel unfair, but technically, rule of law can apply even in the most unfair, despotic systems.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#128

Post by throwaway788 » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 8:50 AM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #118

pikelet wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cross the line? As a kiwi who got stuck in Peru for over 6 months due to the border closure and lack of flights, and had to go through MIQ when I was finally able to return, I'm extremely grateful for the MIQ system. Do I think it could have been handled better? Yes, especially recently as the answer to a lack of MIQ spaces shouldn't have been to make a lottery system it should have been to make more spaces; but over…

This makes no sense at all. Your life would have been strictly easier if MIQ didn't exist, so why are you grateful for it?

Perhaps because over the course of the pandemic only 50 people have died in NZ from Covid. Going through MIQ and the systems built around it has enabled seeding events to be limited to only several incursions supporting elimination and then suppression strategies.

It’s interesting, NZ is a very egalitarian society and it has been one of the strengths through the pandemic to date. People were/are willing to adhere to strict lockdowns (proper ones) or quarantine at the border because it was for the greater good of the entire society rather than ‘what was best’ for a handful of individuals.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#129

Post by PostOnce » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 8:55 AM UTC

Aerroon wrote: post #125

m4x wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's widespread censorship then I assume you can give some supporting examples? The only notable "movie" that I'm aware of being censored in NZ was the live stream of the Christchurch mosque shooting that killed 51 people.

In New Zealand to publish a game or a movie you must have it go through the office of film and literature classification. If it is not classified then it is banned by default. One example of a relatively recent ban of something popular is the anime High School DxD. Ikki Tousen was also banned. They seem to ban a lot of Japanese made stuff. Postal 2 is a game that was explicitly refused classification. This doesn't ju…

That's not true.

https://www.classificationoffice.govt.nz/industry/exemptions...

Most things are exempt.

Nevertheless, the classifications should be voluntary and not legally binding IMO. They're absurdly capricious and incoherent as is, and stifling to free expression and the economy.

e.g. illegal to give 1998's Shogun Total War strategy game to a 17 year old but can give Battlefield Bad Company to a five year old.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#130

Post by shkkmo » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 9:01 AM UTC

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #88

lancewiggs wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we abolished MIQ then Aotearoa NZ would be riddled with COVID, many thousands or tens of thousands would have died, many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and society crippled. As it happens less than 50 have died, each one a tragedy, while I’ve just had a lovely Christmas with 3 generations, as many others are around the motu. Sure we had to video call relatives in other countries, but thei…

>”Our society has decided that nobody should die from COVID. That’s still the right answer.” This sentiment should terrify you. COVID is serious, but my god, there are so much more dangerous and lethal things out there. You’ve basically just given your government a virtual blank check to do as it pleases so long as the threat is sufficiently scary. >”many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and s…

Hasn't NZ's draconian border restrictions been precisely what has allowed them to avoid the need to impose the types of burdensome local restrictions that threaten these small businesses?