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Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

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Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#81

Post by wongarsu »

jacquesm wrote: post #57
rmind wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a few points: - The Budapest Memorandum was, unfortunately, not legally binding. Not justifying the lack of support from the West, but just pointing out an important aspect. - North Atlantic Treaty is legally binding. Also, the Baltic States already host a small multi-national contingent of NATO troops: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Enhanced_Forward_Presence - It is also worth noting that the EU has mutual…

And therein lies the rub: the EU would not be able to do much of anything without the rest of NATO to back them up. And in spite of Europe being dragged along in many American adventures in the middle east I wouldn't count on NATO sticking together either. Way too much 'realpolitik' going on to count on that for long term stability.

Russia has a military budget of 60bn, Germany and France spend 52bn each. Within the EU they are on home turf, with existing rail and road infrastructure. The EU isn't equipped to fight in Russia or to fight a nuclear war (even though France has nukes), but I don't see why the EU shouldn't be able to defend it's own territory in a conventional war.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#82

Post by mk3 »

w_t_payne wrote: post #7

Putin justifies his clumsy adventurism by attempting to paint his enemies as fascists. The rise of the extreme right in the west provides significant political cover for Putin, and should probably be assumed to be a tool of his hybrid warfare strategy.

Anybody speaking against is fascist. Navalny’s organisation is terroristic organisation… Also putting USSR uniforms on hockey players during the games. The only thing which I find funny that a lot of people are getting fed up by this BS both in Russia and outside. And I know people whose parents are living in Russia not getting visas to enter Russia. Old folks and fools maybe fooled that trying to get the might of soviet times is a good idea, but I doubt that guys who saw what ex-soviet countries and soviet satellite countries achieved can tell that they are Top notch country.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#83

Post by ivan_gammel »

rich_sasha wrote: post #24
baud147258 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For joining NATO, isn't there also a requirement on territorial integrity which makes Ukraine joining impossible as long as the Donbass situation persists?

I haven't heard about it, but sounds plausible. That said, if there was political will, it would probably be fine, or there would be a special clause, or sth. For example, West Germany joined NATO (founding member?), even though clearly the country was divided; West Germany didn't, AFAIK, make format territorial claims on East Germany, but they clearly saw themselves as a legitimate state with an occupied territory.

Territorial integrity of the West Germany was ensured by Potsdam treaty and definition of occupation zones. West Germany could not have any territorial claims for the territory of GDR, because it recognized the treaty and the fact that GDR was the occupation zone of USSR.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#84

Post by tauntz »

aa-jv wrote: post #22
rich_sasha wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of countries heavily dependent on Russian gas, Germany being one. I get it, from Spain it looks very different, but this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_European_energy_... shows how many countries depend on Russian gas. This should have been scary to Europe for at least a decade now, but sadly wasn't.

Europeans don't hate Russians as much as Americans do - probably because they've actually got Russians visiting and know that Russia doesn't really represent the threat that the American military-industrial complex needs you to believe is real in order to justify their trillion dollar misadventures and further subjugation of NATO member states into puppetry. In fact, a lot of Europeans would like to see peace made wi…

There's a huge difference for Europeans in hating Russia vs hating Russians. There's also a huge difference in attitude in Western Europe and Eastern Europe.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#85

Post by jacquesm »

wongarsu wrote: post #81
jacquesm wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And therein lies the rub: the EU would not be able to do much of anything without the rest of NATO to back them up. And in spite of Europe being dragged along in many American adventures in the middle east I wouldn't count on NATO sticking together either. Way too much 'realpolitik' going on to count on that for long term stability.

Russia has a military budget of 60bn, Germany and France spend 52bn each. Within the EU they are on home turf, with existing rail and road infrastructure. The EU isn't equipped to fight in Russia or to fight a nuclear war (even though France has nukes), but I don't see why the EU shouldn't be able to defend it's own territory in a conventional war.

Well, let's just hope that that will never be put to the test. As they say: Europe is the battlefield of the world, and Poland is the battlefield of Europe.

Russia is as unpredictable as they ever were at the moment and there is a fair chance of this leading to some kind of escalation in the near future.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#86

Post by [deleted] »

wongarsu wrote: post #68
tomp wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm certain that Israel's nukes and their strategic air strikes against Iran's nuclear/military facilities (preventing Iran from having nukes) contributes much more to their protection than a standing army. This situation is obviously amplified 10x in Lithuania (population 30% of Israel) vs Russia (population 170% Iran).

Israel has been in many conventional wars with it's neighbors since the day it was founded. In recent times their nukes protect them, but historically it was more about every man and women being either active military or reserve, along with an economy that is able to pay for being the best military in the region.

[deleted]

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#87

Post by Dolores12 »

lnsru wrote: post #27

There is only way for country’s protection and it’s Israel’s way where whole country is also an army. Especially for countries near unfriendly countries like Russia in this submission. Because all the treaties and documents signed by politicians are absolutely worthless. Ukraine got rid of all the Soviet nuclear weapons and got lots of promises: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur... Now they…

> where whole country is also an army

Yeah, imagine whole Russia is an army.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#88

Post by mahoro »

wrp wrote: post #56

This is a bit confusing. It sounds like a lieutenant colonel demanded a bribe to not interfere with food delivery and a manager for the food supplier was convicted for paying it. Is that right?

Yes, it's correct and I'd say it's normal in Russia to pay to supervisory authorities to ignore violations. And yes the receiving part is also subject of prosecution but it can be ignored as well or be part of another court process.

Recent death of 55 miners in Kuzbass shows how common this pattern is. All safety equipment in the mine has been disabled or shortcutted but all inspections considered that mine to be safe to use.

UPD: obvious part of the story is the fact that 10-40% of that 130 million contract has been stolen by militaries and food suppliers.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#89

Post by throwaway0a5e »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #58
ivan_gammel wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia in EU would mean also Russia in NATO. Russia wanted to join NATO in 1990s and the answer of the alliance was "No". IIRC, one of the reasons behind that was that this means direct border with China. China is more important and there were hopes that China will democratize as it integrates itself into global economy, so that was an unnecessary risk. The times have changed, now everyone talks about containment - h…

I think Russia in the EU would mean no more NATO. NATO is first and foremost a tool of American power in Europe and against Russia. If the geopolitical landscape changed so much that Russia decided to join the EU and was accepted, I think it would have to mean that the EU/Europe had shifted (back) to standing up on its own. > with the economy of the similar size to Germany Russia's economy is not that big. Nominal GD…

>NATO is first and foremost a tool of American power in Europe and against Russia

Sure, but that's only because Russian and US foreign policy goals are so opposed.

Other than their territorial ambitions in Europe this need not be the case.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#90

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

jacquesm wrote: post #47
enkid wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine is not part of NATO. The Western response is very different for Ukraine then it would be for a NATO country.

We'll see about that. I wouldn't put too much stock in that if that country is Latvia, Lithuania or possibly even Poland. If it were Germany, France, Finland, Sweden or the UK it would likely be a different matter. Article 5 of the treaty is nice in principle, but those principles have never been put to a real test (in some circles this is called the 'Riga test' for a reason).

> We'll see about that.

I understand your pessimism but we are talking about the most powerful military organization on the planet. If for some strange reason they decide they give up protecting their borders, they might as well not exist. If Russia decides to invade Latvia and NATO does nothing, the whole pact might as well dissolve itself as it serves no function.

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