Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine • Hacker News Board

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#21

Post by mc32 » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

baud147258 wrote: post #19

3pt14159 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The west will not protect Ukraine for two giant reasons. 1. Russia has gas over Germany. 2. Amassing troops on Russia's boarder without an alliance with Ukraine is politically challenging. 3. America is sick of war and doesn't have a good looking balance sheet. 4. China is the new meta. Taiwan is tough enough. 5. Joining Nato is a process starts with have a certain level of democratic freedom and market economy that…

For joining NATO, isn't there also a requirement on territorial integrity which makes Ukraine joining impossible as long as the Donbass situation persists?

If that’s the case. How did West Germany join NATO given they had no control over the DDR?

Looks like you could just declare you have territorial integrity and you’re set, irrespective of reality.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#22

Post by aa-jv » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

rich_sasha wrote: post #20

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The latter is very difficult for Europe in winter The latter is very difficult for Germany in winter. Let's call a spade a spade and stop bundling the EU27 with Germany's energy policy and geo-political failures.

There's plenty of countries heavily dependent on Russian gas, Germany being one. I get it, from Spain it looks very different, but this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_European_energy_... shows how many countries depend on Russian gas. This should have been scary to Europe for at least a decade now, but sadly wasn't.

Europeans don't hate Russians as much as Americans do - probably because they've actually got Russians visiting and know that Russia doesn't really represent the threat that the American military-industrial complex needs you to believe is real in order to justify their trillion dollar misadventures and further subjugation of NATO member states into puppetry.

In fact, a lot of Europeans would like to see peace made with Russia. A Europe united with Russia would be the one superpower even China could do little to contain ..

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#23

Post by baud147258 » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

w_t_payne wrote: post #7

Putin justifies his clumsy adventurism by attempting to paint his enemies as fascists. The rise of the extreme right in the west provides significant political cover for Putin, and should probably be assumed to be a tool of his hybrid warfare strategy.

I don't think the rise of far-right parties and ideologies in the West is something that can be blamed on Putin. He is exploiting it and sometime helping existing groups and factions, but not much more.

And for Ukraine, the anti-Russian faction does have some facist/neo-nazis groups in it.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#24

Post by rich_sasha » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

baud147258 wrote: post #19

3pt14159 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The west will not protect Ukraine for two giant reasons. 1. Russia has gas over Germany. 2. Amassing troops on Russia's boarder without an alliance with Ukraine is politically challenging. 3. America is sick of war and doesn't have a good looking balance sheet. 4. China is the new meta. Taiwan is tough enough. 5. Joining Nato is a process starts with have a certain level of democratic freedom and market economy that…

For joining NATO, isn't there also a requirement on territorial integrity which makes Ukraine joining impossible as long as the Donbass situation persists?

I haven't heard about it, but sounds plausible.

That said, if there was political will, it would probably be fine, or there would be a special clause, or sth.

For example, West Germany joined NATO (founding member?), even though clearly the country was divided; West Germany didn't, AFAIK, make format territorial claims on East Germany, but they clearly saw themselves as a legitimate state with an occupied territory.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#25

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 1:15 PM UTC

necovek wrote: post #5

jacquesm wrote: post #3

As if there was any doubt about this. Putin isn't fooling anybody except for maybe a very gullible fraction of the Russian citizens. But even there most people are quite aware of what the score is.

Of course: it's not like anything will change even with proof. In conflicts like these, it's always people in the area that'll suffer most.

And those that happen to overfly that area.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#26

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #21

baud147258 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For joining NATO, isn't there also a requirement on territorial integrity which makes Ukraine joining impossible as long as the Donbass situation persists?

If that’s the case. How did West Germany join NATO given they had no control over the DDR? Looks like you could just declare you have territorial integrity and you’re set, irrespective of reality.

West Germany and the DDR were two separate countries.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#27

Post by lnsru » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

There is only way for country’s protection and it’s Israel’s way where whole country is also an army. Especially for countries near unfriendly countries like Russia in this submission. Because all the treaties and documents signed by politicians are absolutely worthless. Ukraine got rid of all the Soviet nuclear weapons and got lots of promises: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur... Now they are in endless war with Russia trying grab bigger and bigger chunk of the territory. Will NATO come for let’s say Latvia or Lithuania? I honestly don’t think so. Politics with all the politicians are really disgusting.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#28

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 1:20 PM UTC

w_t_payne wrote: post #7

Putin justifies his clumsy adventurism by attempting to paint his enemies as fascists. The rise of the extreme right in the west provides significant political cover for Putin, and should probably be assumed to be a tool of his hybrid warfare strategy.

Putin finances plenty of these groups. It's a very little bit of money but it has substantial impact due to the asymmetry of destruction, you only need a few thousand people to destabilize a country of millions.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#29

Post by TheGigaChad » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 1:20 PM UTC

aa-jv wrote: post #22

rich_sasha wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of countries heavily dependent on Russian gas, Germany being one. I get it, from Spain it looks very different, but this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_European_energy_... shows how many countries depend on Russian gas. This should have been scary to Europe for at least a decade now, but sadly wasn't.

Europeans don't hate Russians as much as Americans do - probably because they've actually got Russians visiting and know that Russia doesn't really represent the threat that the American military-industrial complex needs you to believe is real in order to justify their trillion dollar misadventures and further subjugation of NATO member states into puppetry. In fact, a lot of Europeans would like to see peace made wi…

Lol, idiot. The more you know Russians - the more you hate them.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#30

Post by w_t_payne » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 1:20 PM UTC

baud147258 wrote: post #23

w_t_payne wrote: post #7

Putin justifies his clumsy adventurism by attempting to paint his enemies as fascists. The rise of the extreme right in the west provides significant political cover for Putin, and should probably be assumed to be a tool of his hybrid warfare strategy.

I don't think the rise of far-right parties and ideologies in the West is something that can be blamed on Putin. He is exploiting it and sometime helping existing groups and factions, but not much more. And for Ukraine, the anti-Russian faction does have some facist/neo-nazis groups in it.

He clearly isn't exclusively responsible, but he is a big part of the problem, and it is part of a hybrid warfare doctrine that's being actively and aggressively pursued.

Similarly, those fascist/neo-nazi elements, whether in Ukraine or beyond, though supposedly anti-Russian, are to all practical purposes serving Putin's domestic political interests.