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Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

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Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#71

Post by bovermyer »

patriagreca wrote: post #46
danlugo92 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only good outcome for the whole world is Putin and allies being ousted out of power and replaced by actual non-warmonger democrats. Imagine a future with Russia in the EU, best timeline. Nobody wants nuclear war, maybe some kind of super-sanctions would be the only recourse for the west, cut them off everything, and I mean everything.

Shout-out to a fellow imperialist! Let's oust govs that we don't like yaaay

I think the implication was that the Russian people should decide to oust Putin, rather than an external sovereign power doing it.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#72

Post by tanelpoder »

jacquesm wrote: post #47
enkid wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine is not part of NATO. The Western response is very different for Ukraine then it would be for a NATO country.

We'll see about that. I wouldn't put too much stock in that if that country is Latvia, Lithuania or possibly even Poland. If it were Germany, France, Finland, Sweden or the UK it would likely be a different matter. Article 5 of the treaty is nice in principle, but those principles have never been put to a real test (in some circles this is called the 'Riga test' for a reason).

It's worth mentioning that Finland and Sweden are not NATO member states.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#73

Post by MagnumOpus »

rmind wrote: post #53
lnsru wrote: post #27

There is only way for country’s protection and it’s Israel’s way where whole country is also an army. Especially for countries near unfriendly countries like Russia in this submission. Because all the treaties and documents signed by politicians are absolutely worthless. Ukraine got rid of all the Soviet nuclear weapons and got lots of promises: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur... Now they…

Just a few points: - The Budapest Memorandum was, unfortunately, not legally binding. Not justifying the lack of support from the West, but just pointing out an important aspect. - North Atlantic Treaty is legally binding. Also, the Baltic States already host a small multi-national contingent of NATO troops: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Enhanced_Forward_Presence - It is also worth noting that the EU has mutual…

Anything in international treaties is only as legally binding as the enforcement measures behind them. As a small country, no international treaties are ever legally binding. After all, what could the government-in-exile of Latvia do after a Russian invasion if the US president or UK PM decided after a focus group session that going to war with Russia over the Baltics is not a vote winner?

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#74

Post by treme »

danlugo92 wrote: post #33
lnsru wrote: post #27

There is only way for country’s protection and it’s Israel’s way where whole country is also an army. Especially for countries near unfriendly countries like Russia in this submission. Because all the treaties and documents signed by politicians are absolutely worthless. Ukraine got rid of all the Soviet nuclear weapons and got lots of promises: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur... Now they…

The only good outcome for the whole world is Putin and allies being ousted out of power and replaced by actual non-warmonger democrats. Imagine a future with Russia in the EU, best timeline. Nobody wants nuclear war, maybe some kind of super-sanctions would be the only recourse for the west, cut them off everything, and I mean everything.

You sound pretty naïve. Putin holding on to power is likely the best outcome for the world vs unknown power vacuum & chaos that will ensue after Putin's gone.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#75

Post by bingohbangoh »

MagnumOpus wrote: post #73
rmind wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a few points: - The Budapest Memorandum was, unfortunately, not legally binding. Not justifying the lack of support from the West, but just pointing out an important aspect. - North Atlantic Treaty is legally binding. Also, the Baltic States already host a small multi-national contingent of NATO troops: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Enhanced_Forward_Presence - It is also worth noting that the EU has mutual…

Anything in international treaties is only as legally binding as the enforcement measures behind them. As a small country, no international treaties are ever legally binding. After all, what could the government-in-exile of Latvia do after a Russian invasion if the US president or UK PM decided after a focus group session that going to war with Russia over the Baltics is not a vote winner?

NATO troops being actively stationed in the Baltics is a little different. Ukraine doesn’t have anything that I’m aware of.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#76

Post by jacquesm »

medo-bear wrote: post #59

so this article is in russian/ukranian (or another language in cyrillic) and i wonder, did all people liking or commenting here really read this? as a european i tend to be very skeptical of the US involvement in eastern europe. they seem to be exploiting the enmity of some eastern european nations toward russia for own economic gain and to stop russia selling its natural resources to EU. all the while being many man…

There is this thing called Google translate, it works surprisingly well for getting the gist of articles in languages that you can not read. I use it professionally (with some caveats) and it is quite impressive. It certainly isn't perfect and I wouldn't use it to write stuff but for reading it is ok.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#77

Post by MagnumOpus »

abcd_f wrote: post #70
danlugo92 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only good outcome for the whole world is Putin and allies being ousted out of power and replaced by actual non-warmonger democrats. Imagine a future with Russia in the EU, best timeline. Nobody wants nuclear war, maybe some kind of super-sanctions would be the only recourse for the west, cut them off everything, and I mean everything.

Russia doesn’t give a fuck about Ukraine for as long as it’s not in Nato. Just like the US didn’t like Russian military presence on Cuba, they don’t want the US presence in Ukraine. It’s all fundamentally dead simple. Russia views Ukraine as a buffer country between itself and the West and will do anything to keep it that way.

That's falsified by Russia's ongoing metre-by-metre invasion of Georgia[0]. Not a NATO member, and won't become one either. Still Vova Putin saw some Lebensraum and decided it's his for the taking.

[0] https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/humanrights/2019/02/05/russias-new-s...

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#78

Post by throw1234651234 »

BrazzVuvuzela wrote: post #11
w_t_payne wrote: post #7

Putin justifies his clumsy adventurism by attempting to paint his enemies as fascists. The rise of the extreme right in the west provides significant political cover for Putin, and should probably be assumed to be a tool of his hybrid warfare strategy.

> attempting to paint his enemies as fascists. Ukraine makes this easy for him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

You might want to stress that there are 10s of these battalions and 90%+ of them have no such leanings for honesty:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_Ukraine

18th Operational Regiment (Reinforced), Mariupol Regimental HQ 1st Patrol Battalion 2nd Special Purpose Battalion "Donbas", Mariupol Special Purpose Reinforced Battalion "Azov", Mariupol Special Patrol Company, Mariupol Support Company

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#79

Post by mytailorisrich »

danlugo92 wrote: post #33
lnsru wrote: post #27

There is only way for country’s protection and it’s Israel’s way where whole country is also an army. Especially for countries near unfriendly countries like Russia in this submission. Because all the treaties and documents signed by politicians are absolutely worthless. Ukraine got rid of all the Soviet nuclear weapons and got lots of promises: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur... Now they…

The only good outcome for the whole world is Putin and allies being ousted out of power and replaced by actual non-warmonger democrats. Imagine a future with Russia in the EU, best timeline. Nobody wants nuclear war, maybe some kind of super-sanctions would be the only recourse for the west, cut them off everything, and I mean everything.

Russia is not in the EU because of fundamental geopolitical differences and diverging interests. Changing the Russian government does not change these aspects.

The same goes for China, for instance. It is naive to think that a democratic government in China would fundamentally change anything to the geopolitical situation or China's international policy and goals.

The government's leanings may influence the means by which a country pursues its geopolitical interests but do not change those interests. Just observe the US.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#80

Post by jacquesm »

tanelpoder wrote: post #72
jacquesm wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'll see about that. I wouldn't put too much stock in that if that country is Latvia, Lithuania or possibly even Poland. If it were Germany, France, Finland, Sweden or the UK it would likely be a different matter. Article 5 of the treaty is nice in principle, but those principles have never been put to a real test (in some circles this is called the 'Riga test' for a reason).

It's worth mentioning that Finland and Sweden are not NATO member states.

That is true, at the same time they are part of the EU and part of the EU co-defense pact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Po...

They also collaborate on NATO exercises, and the reverse is also true: NATO partakes in Swedish and Finish military exercises.

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