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Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

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Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#41

Post by rebolek »

aa-jv wrote: post #22
rich_sasha wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of countries heavily dependent on Russian gas, Germany being one. I get it, from Spain it looks very different, but this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_European_energy_... shows how many countries depend on Russian gas. This should have been scary to Europe for at least a decade now, but sadly wasn't.

Europeans don't hate Russians as much as Americans do - probably because they've actually got Russians visiting and know that Russia doesn't really represent the threat that the American military-industrial complex needs you to believe is real in order to justify their trillion dollar misadventures and further subjugation of NATO member states into puppetry. In fact, a lot of Europeans would like to see peace made wi…

Lot of European countries have troubled history with Russia and understand what a threat (at least under Putin) they are.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#42

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

danlugo92 wrote: post #33
lnsru wrote: post #27

There is only way for country’s protection and it’s Israel’s way where whole country is also an army. Especially for countries near unfriendly countries like Russia in this submission. Because all the treaties and documents signed by politicians are absolutely worthless. Ukraine got rid of all the Soviet nuclear weapons and got lots of promises: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur... Now they…

The only good outcome for the whole world is Putin and allies being ousted out of power and replaced by actual non-warmonger democrats. Imagine a future with Russia in the EU, best timeline. Nobody wants nuclear war, maybe some kind of super-sanctions would be the only recourse for the west, cut them off everything, and I mean everything.

Too bad Germany blundered by making themselves dependent on Russian gas to survive.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#43

Post by reducesuffering »

aa-jv wrote: post #22
rich_sasha wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of countries heavily dependent on Russian gas, Germany being one. I get it, from Spain it looks very different, but this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_European_energy_... shows how many countries depend on Russian gas. This should have been scary to Europe for at least a decade now, but sadly wasn't.

Europeans don't hate Russians as much as Americans do - probably because they've actually got Russians visiting and know that Russia doesn't really represent the threat that the American military-industrial complex needs you to believe is real in order to justify their trillion dollar misadventures and further subjugation of NATO member states into puppetry. In fact, a lot of Europeans would like to see peace made wi…

Western Europeans are generally ambivalent towards the threat from comfortable complacency. Have you met Ukrainians or Georgians? They're not NATO states. They understand full well the threat and seizures they're under and will tell you so. The closer the proximity to the Russian state, the more the people are concerned.

Places like Poland and Slovakia are similar only somewhat less so.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#44

Post by enkid »

jacquesm wrote: post #32
lnsru wrote: post #27

There is only way for country’s protection and it’s Israel’s way where whole country is also an army. Especially for countries near unfriendly countries like Russia in this submission. Because all the treaties and documents signed by politicians are absolutely worthless. Ukraine got rid of all the Soviet nuclear weapons and got lots of promises: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur... Now they…

> Will NATO come for let’s say Latvia or Lithuania? I honestly don’t think so. I fear that you are right. And with Kaliningrad pretty much ideally positioned to pull another Donbass the stage is set for a lot of misery in Poland, Lithuania and possibly even Latvia and Estonia.

Ukraine is not part of NATO. The Western response is very different for Ukraine then it would be for a NATO country.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#45

Post by w_t_payne »

BrazzVuvuzela wrote: post #37
w_t_payne wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly pretty vile, indefensible stuff, and yet it's Putin who is waging war against us.

Realpolitik: it doesn't matter who started it. If Ukraine wants western assistance in this fight, they should stop incorporating neo-nazi militias into their national guard.

I don't care who started it. I'm focused on direct threats to myself and my family.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#46

Post by patriagreca »

danlugo92 wrote: post #33
lnsru wrote: post #27

There is only way for country’s protection and it’s Israel’s way where whole country is also an army. Especially for countries near unfriendly countries like Russia in this submission. Because all the treaties and documents signed by politicians are absolutely worthless. Ukraine got rid of all the Soviet nuclear weapons and got lots of promises: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur... Now they…

The only good outcome for the whole world is Putin and allies being ousted out of power and replaced by actual non-warmonger democrats. Imagine a future with Russia in the EU, best timeline. Nobody wants nuclear war, maybe some kind of super-sanctions would be the only recourse for the west, cut them off everything, and I mean everything.

Shout-out to a fellow imperialist! Let's oust govs that we don't like yaaay

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#47

Post by jacquesm »

enkid wrote: post #44
jacquesm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Will NATO come for let’s say Latvia or Lithuania? I honestly don’t think so. I fear that you are right. And with Kaliningrad pretty much ideally positioned to pull another Donbass the stage is set for a lot of misery in Poland, Lithuania and possibly even Latvia and Estonia.

Ukraine is not part of NATO. The Western response is very different for Ukraine then it would be for a NATO country.

We'll see about that. I wouldn't put too much stock in that if that country is Latvia, Lithuania or possibly even Poland. If it were Germany, France, Finland, Sweden or the UK it would likely be a different matter. Article 5 of the treaty is nice in principle, but those principles have never been put to a real test (in some circles this is called the 'Riga test' for a reason).

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#48

Post by BrazzVuvuzela »

w_t_payne wrote: post #45
BrazzVuvuzela wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realpolitik: it doesn't matter who started it. If Ukraine wants western assistance in this fight, they should stop incorporating neo-nazi militias into their national guard.

I don't care who started it. I'm focused on direct threats to myself and my family.

Well you've got to do what you've got to do. But practically speaking, nobody else is obliged to help you.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#49

Post by enkid »

jmacd wrote: post #9

I think we in the west need something like a 'doctrine of the foregone conclusion'. Often things are very obvious, even notorious, but because we do not want to face the eventuality, we do things like negotiate or perseverate our denials all while the situation escalates. If NATO and the west are ready and willing to defend Ukraine (I suspect we are not), in which case a significant increase in our own presence would…

Ukraine knows the limits of Western support and is not asking for Western military in Ukraine. What they are asking for is arms sales, training, and economic assistance to deter Russia, which the West is doing, but should continue to step up.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#50

Post by ivan_gammel »

danlugo92 wrote: post #33
lnsru wrote: post #27

There is only way for country’s protection and it’s Israel’s way where whole country is also an army. Especially for countries near unfriendly countries like Russia in this submission. Because all the treaties and documents signed by politicians are absolutely worthless. Ukraine got rid of all the Soviet nuclear weapons and got lots of promises: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur... Now they…

The only good outcome for the whole world is Putin and allies being ousted out of power and replaced by actual non-warmonger democrats. Imagine a future with Russia in the EU, best timeline. Nobody wants nuclear war, maybe some kind of super-sanctions would be the only recourse for the west, cut them off everything, and I mean everything.

Russia in EU would mean also Russia in NATO. Russia wanted to join NATO in 1990s and the answer of the alliance was "No". IIRC, one of the reasons behind that was that this means direct border with China. China is more important and there were hopes that China will democratize as it integrates itself into global economy, so that was an unnecessary risk. The times have changed, now everyone talks about containment - having Russia as part of the biggest military and economic alliance in history would mean a lot for it. But this also means including a right wing conservative power with the economy of the similar size to Germany, twice more people, nuclear weapons and ideology similar to the one of Poland or Hungary. Making Putin leave (or waiting until he dies) will not be enough to change this.
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