Americans overestimate social mobility in their country • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#191

Post by maxerickson » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 3:41 AM UTC

fourtrees wrote: post #181

forgotmyoldname wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, wars were fought over that and revolutions had. People decidedly did not like royalty, large so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve groups, being so far above them. For a while, people much preferred knowing they could work hard or smart and make progress from the bottom to the top 20%. We're talking about the top 20% here. Not the top 0.1%.

This is one of my big take-aways from the article. My great-(great?-)-grandparents from Eastern Europe armed with nothing but excellent numeracy, some English, and the clothes on their backs. They could reliably expect to enter move out of post-immigration poverty based on skills cultivated for the purpose of success in the US. My great-x-grandfather ended up a bank manager. And they passed money and knowledge along…

As far as earnings, median household income is very achievable (~$68,000). Associates degrees in medical fields lead to $50,000+ salaries. How far those earnings go relative to other periods is debatable.

Catching up in terms of wealth is probably a lot harder (because we continue to get richer).

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#192

Post by GavinMcG » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 3:44 AM UTC

csallen wrote: post #155

tshaddox wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The more people who belong to the so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve group, the better. Aren’t you just literally saying that social mobility is bad?

No, I'm saying that there's always going to be some level of wealth that's difficult to achieve. We can all pull a number out of thin air that's just super high, that's tough to imagine people in the bottom 20% commonly getting to in their lifetime. For argument's sake, let's say that number is a net worth of $500K. (Because that just so happens to be the minimum net worth to be in the top 20% of Americans[0].) What…

> there's always going to be some level of wealth that's difficult to achieve

Sure, but if that number is such that a significant proportion of society is born with it and pass it along to their children while everyone else can't hope to get there, that's a very different society and social structure than one where a few extremely lucky people happen to achieve it each generation without a self-reinforcing class structure.

> It does nobody any good for fewer people to be wealthy

It could. If we actively redistributed wealth from the top quintile to the bottom quintile, it would do a lot of people a lot of good.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#193

Post by jjcon » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 3:44 AM UTC

ummonk wrote: post #129

savant_penguin wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is possible, but it's also possible that they are just lying too Some studies use household income over years to """prove""" that incomes have either fallen or stagnated. They just outright ignore that the size of the household went from 6+ to about 4. In this scenario a constant household income meant about 50% increase in per Capita income

Are you suggesting that households make use of child labor?

Don't like a third of kids in high school have part time jobs? I believe those rates have been falling too

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#194

Post by 999900000999 » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 3:45 AM UTC

vmception wrote: post #124

999900000999 wrote: post #57

Social mobility is a very tricky thing. I think every person can succeed as long as they have the courage to cut off people who are counterproductive to that. For example, when I look at my own parents, they're simply self-destructive people who never took responsibility for any of their actions. Whenever I've needed to depend on anyone in my family. I've ultimately been let down, but when it comes to my own efforts.…

> All of this sad, I've been very lucky. Medical conditions I'd be screwed. All it takes is a single severe medical condition to financially ruin you, and then you can't afford treatment, in this country says good luck try a go fund me Then not every person. The American system greatly adds roadblocks. There are many reasons besides personal medical conditions that your work hard mentality would have been irrelevant…

No matter how hard you work, a serious medical condition can ruin it all. This happens to many people

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#195

Post by seventytwo » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 3:45 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #58

Again, it's highly problematic defining mobility as "moving from bottom quintile to top quintile". - Moving from bottom quintile to 2nd highest is significant mobility and completely ignored in this analysis. - The analysis ignores the fact that the highest quintile in the US is higher in absolute terms than other countries. So moving from bottom to 4th may give more income than bottom to 5th in other countries. - Th…

How is it problematic and not just an arbitrary metric?

You also presuppose that everything should be relative to absolute terms. What evidence do you have that social mobility should be relative to absolute terms rather than relative to the quintiles defined by the society a given person lives in?

Why would we expect mobility in absolute terms for a society that ranges from 1-100 in wealth, compared to a society than ranges from 40-50? We should expect mobility to be with respect to the society’s wealth range.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#196

Post by seventytwo » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 3:47 AM UTC

twobitshifter wrote: post #95

I think the first step is to admit we have a problem. People don’t like the United States being labeled as anything less than exceptional. If you look at the Amazon workers, Uber drivers, door dashers, etc in this country it’s amazing how hard people can work and not get ahead. 2nd and 3rd jobs can be necessary to just make ends meet. The story that hard work is all it takes in America does need to be questioned.

This is the fundamental barrier toward progress in this country: The idea that America is somehow already perfect.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#197

Post by Talanes » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 3:47 AM UTC

rpmisms wrote: post #83

mitigating wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California has one of the lowest divorce rates in the entire country https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/states-with...

California is ~1 point below the national average in marriages and divorces. By comparison, Maine is 4 points over the marriage average and 3 points under the divorce average. I should have remembered my audience and not made a joke about California's differences from the rest of the country. https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/12/united-states...

It's a trite joke not even grounded in reality. Vast swaths of California believe exactly the same shit as the people making those jokes. I mean, I grew up in the mountains, cutting through cow-pastures to get to school. I've yet to hear a California joke that rings true to my experience.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#198

Post by _dark_matter_ » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 3:48 AM UTC

tdfx wrote: post #154

jollybean wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"t's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field." I think that's true for White and Asian folks. But the thing about America is that it has two, giant categories of people in a 'different lane' - notably those in poor Black urban neighbourhoods, and new Latino migrants particularly in Texas/Cali where they are highly segregated from the rest of society. 'T…

> I think that's true for White and Asian folks. Race-based generalizations almost always end up leading you in the wrong direction. There's substantially more white people living below the poverty line compared to any other group [1] and those poor white communities are trapped by the same lack of awareness of opportunities as any of the minority groups you mentioned. Whites and Asians are over-represented in the af…

Your link clearly shows that poverty is significantly worse along black people than white (19% to 8.5%), and worse among American Indians than black people (25% to 19%). I don't understand why you would ever look at this in per Capita terms when clearly there are more white people overall.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#199

Post by 999900000999 » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 3:52 AM UTC

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #180

999900000999 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lucky you for having a decent medical system, I consider myself to be exceptionally privileged. Which I can pay, at least to me a relatively small amount of money to treat. But if I was living paycheck to paycheck, I might not be able to afford my medication, and I can literally die due to not being able to afford my medication. Medical expenses are the single worse thing about American life, so many of us end up ski…

The best I can do is say good luck! Australia's medical system is pretty good, but private health doesn't feel cheap. If / When you're planning to move, check out both Australia and New Zealand as options.

How hard is it getting a work visa. I had a recruiter out of Ireland reach out to me recently. I have many stories about the American health Care system which I simply don't share, but I don't think a dystopian novelist from the 1950s could imagine what the hell we have today.

What's the best way to get a CS job in Australian or New Zealand

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#200

Post by Jensson » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 3:53 AM UTC

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #184

vmception wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk with any patriotic person and you'll quickly notice that American exceptionalism relies on comparing the United States to the worst countries in the world and ignoring the existence of other developed nations. Eventually followed by "well at least we can talk about it, unlike " and so therefore all indiscretions must be absolved and ignorable since we have the "unique" ability to criticize the government at all,…

> and ignoring the existence of other developed nations I mean, Germany and France literally criminalized name-calling and teasing on the internet. They actively compel social media websites to delete posts and comments that make fun of people, or make them feel bad. USA doesn't exactly have the highest moral ground, but it has some higher moral ground for sure. So what exactly is USA supposed to learn from these oth…

A big difference is that USA puts you in jail for years for relatively minor things like possessing drugs. Europe might have laws banning some things USA doesn't, but the laws USA has are so much more oppressive since the American justice system and police are much less lenient.