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Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

economist.com

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Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#141

Post by naniwaduni »

Swizec wrote: post #60
rpmisms wrote: post #23

Social mobility is very different than economic mobility. It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. Heck, I did it without any college. Social mobility is a different story. I was raised in a rural area, which is essentially a social class of its own. Since becoming an adult, I've found myself gravitating towards working-class people. I like the blu…

A few lessons for social mobility I learned while joining the SF techie class, coming here from a relatively poor country in Europe. 1. If Americans can’t read your emotes they put you in a “Uh this feels weird, that person is an emotionless robot” camp. You have to practice 2. It is not okay to ask “What’s that?” when someone proudly mentions which college they went to (because as a European you only recognize 4 or…

Are you ... familiar with the "regional gothic" genre?

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#142

Post by bluejekyll »

stavros wrote: post #38

I really liked this TED talk: Where in the world is it easiest to get rich? | Harald Eia | TEDxOslo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9UmdY0E8hU

Thanks for sharing that.

This all resonates well with my own beliefs, so I’m sure I’m biased. But good free education for everyone, automation to free up the lower rungs of the workforce and increase productivity, social safety net to make people less concerned about layoffs and work fluctuations.

If only the wealthy supported these policies, they would be more wealthy!

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#143

Post by 999900000999 »

fartcannon wrote: post #72
999900000999 wrote: post #57

Social mobility is a very tricky thing. I think every person can succeed as long as they have the courage to cut off people who are counterproductive to that. For example, when I look at my own parents, they're simply self-destructive people who never took responsibility for any of their actions. Whenever I've needed to depend on anyone in my family. I've ultimately been let down, but when it comes to my own efforts.…

It's also not possible for everyone to succeed since it's a zero sum game. Therefore, you should be thanking the people who's life circumstances prevent them from learning to succeed and doubly you should thank your parents for raising you in a way that you were able to surpass them.

My childhood was a living hell because my parents don't want to work or do anything. I went through multiple evictions by the time I was 19, I consider myself exceptionally lucky that I was able to afford my first apartment at 19 years old because otherwise I don't think I'd still be here.

At the same time, I've met tons of adults who were in their '30s whose parents never just said no. Their parents never said you need to figure it out, get the hell out of my house. I got kicked out for the first time when I was 15, and then I went through an eviction about a year and a half later when I was 17, so I'm very well aware that every single day I need to work hard. I need to work so hard so I'll never go through an affection again.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#144

Post by endisneigh »

csallen wrote: post #100
forgotmyoldname wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... that doesn't detract from the problem at all. That just says there's a massive wealth divide and that moving up to the mere top 20% (the group 1 out of 5 people belong to) should be considered a ridiculous proposition unless you're born into it. Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic?

> Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic? Why is it a bad thing that so many people are so wealthy? The more people who belong to the so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve group, the better.

Historically in the United States rich people have had a disproportionate influence on politics, distorting the effectiveness of our democracy.

There is no problem that people are wealthy, the problem is that the wealthy people do not share (accountability, wealth, etc.)

* wealthy here is used in a relative sense, not in an absolute one. Obviously it's good that people in general are wealthy absolutely.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#145

Post by mehphp »

thepasswordis wrote: post #119

Regardless of how much money I make, none of my friends went to Stanford, I grew up in a boring town in a boring part of the world, and I made my money in an “unglamorous” industry. I could make $10B. I still wouldn’t reach the top level of class. Maybe my kids kids will. Here’s an attempt to say something positive about this: you guys should try to seek out those unglamorous industries, usually in unglamorous parts…

Do you have an example of this? I’m intrigued

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#146

Post by dqv »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #108
dqv wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I almost accepted this and went on my way, but it only tells like 7% of the story. The first thing is that your eligibility stops as soon as you start making more money (i.e. single earner > $17,000). But that increase in money does not cover the new costs for healthcare. Aha! But at such a low income you get the ACA subsidy! But the insurance plans you can get have really high deductibles. If you're making $20,000 a…

> you will be really lucky to have a PCP that does the home work to make sure you are referred in-network They have whole databases on their computers that do this for them. Maybe they refer you to someone across town, or the next town over. But they're going to try hard to keep you in-network. This is also why Canadians are constantly paying out-of-pocket to come to USA to get their knee surgeries and back surgeries…

The accuracy of those databases is questionable as evidenced by $InsuranceCompany calling around to providers asking if they accept $InsuranceCompany. Of course, the better the insurance you have, the easier this problem is to solve because more providers are in-network.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#147

Post by Kinrany »

csallen wrote: post #100
forgotmyoldname wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... that doesn't detract from the problem at all. That just says there's a massive wealth divide and that moving up to the mere top 20% (the group 1 out of 5 people belong to) should be considered a ridiculous proposition unless you're born into it. Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic?

> Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic? Why is it a bad thing that so many people are so wealthy? The more people who belong to the so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve group, the better.

> Why is it a bad thing that so many people are so wealthy?

To be pedantic, exactly 20% are that wealthy.

> The more people who belong to the so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve group, the better.

So-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve can only be defined compared to people who can't achieve it. Medieval kings were in that category but lived worse that we do.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#148

Post by Rexxar »

kbenson wrote: post #118
twobitshifter wrote: post #95

I think the first step is to admit we have a problem. People don’t like the United States being labeled as anything less than exceptional. If you look at the Amazon workers, Uber drivers, door dashers, etc in this country it’s amazing how hard people can work and not get ahead. 2nd and 3rd jobs can be necessary to just make ends meet. The story that hard work is all it takes in America does need to be questioned.

There's a few ways to look at the data. One is that it's harder to move to the top quintile in America than some other countries, and people perceive it's much easier than it in in America compared to those places. The other is that it's much easier to get out of the lower quintile in America than those same countries. There's a couple reasons that might be. One is that social mobility is actually higher in America,…

> The other is that it's much easier to get out of the lower quintile in America than those same countries.

That's not what the first graph shows. What you say is true for "perceived" mobility, not for effective mobility. 33% of Americans stay in bottom quintile, much more than other countries.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#149

Post by ummonk »

kbenson wrote: post #118
twobitshifter wrote: post #95

I think the first step is to admit we have a problem. People don’t like the United States being labeled as anything less than exceptional. If you look at the Amazon workers, Uber drivers, door dashers, etc in this country it’s amazing how hard people can work and not get ahead. 2nd and 3rd jobs can be necessary to just make ends meet. The story that hard work is all it takes in America does need to be questioned.

There's a few ways to look at the data. One is that it's harder to move to the top quintile in America than some other countries, and people perceive it's much easier than it in in America compared to those places. The other is that it's much easier to get out of the lower quintile in America than those same countries. There's a couple reasons that might be. One is that social mobility is actually higher in America,…

Even beyond that, interpreting financial mobility is a tricky thing. For example, countries that have had high levels of meritocracy in the past may exhibit less financial mobility because people are already sorted into their merited economic brackets.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#150

Post by nyokodo »

csallen wrote: post #100
forgotmyoldname wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... that doesn't detract from the problem at all. That just says there's a massive wealth divide and that moving up to the mere top 20% (the group 1 out of 5 people belong to) should be considered a ridiculous proposition unless you're born into it. Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic?

> Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic? Why is it a bad thing that so many people are so wealthy? The more people who belong to the so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve group, the better.

> Why is it a bad thing that so many people are that wealthy?

Much more than they’re willing to admit this controversy is about envy on that side. They cloak that envy in a veneer of concern for the poor and concern about the undue influence that money allows; both valid concerns. However, they then target policies that exacerbate poverty and make worse the absolute plight of the poor.

The other side is not willing to admit that for them it’s more than a bit about avarice. They hide that avarice in myths of the self made founder and myths about ethically conscious capitalism; both things you can find laudable examples of. However, many hide their privileged starting points and sell out immediately when profit conflicts with their morals.

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