Americans overestimate social mobility in their country • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#101

Post by rpmisms » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:50 AM UTC

jollybean wrote: post #84

rpmisms wrote: post #23

Social mobility is very different than economic mobility. It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. Heck, I did it without any college. Social mobility is a different story. I was raised in a rural area, which is essentially a social class of its own. Since becoming an adult, I've found myself gravitating towards working-class people. I like the blu…

"t's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field." I think that's true for White and Asian folks. But the thing about America is that it has two, giant categories of people in a 'different lane' - notably those in poor Black urban neighbourhoods, and new Latino migrants particularly in Texas/Cali where they are highly segregated from the rest of society. 'T…

I would argue that the people in those ecosystems have much of the opportunity afforded to me, they just don't know about how possible it really is.

I personally work at a Floridian company, and have a bunch of coworkers who come from the exact backgrounds you talk about. It's totally possible, it just has to be a known opportunity, not a pie-in-the-sky dream.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#102

Post by inetknght » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:51 AM UTC

csallen wrote: post #100

forgotmyoldname wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... that doesn't detract from the problem at all. That just says there's a massive wealth divide and that moving up to the mere top 20% (the group 1 out of 5 people belong to) should be considered a ridiculous proposition unless you're born into it. Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic?

> Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic? Why is it a bad thing that so many people are so wealthy? The more people who belong to the so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve group, the better.

> Why is it a bad thing that so many people are that wealthy?

In the USA's case: for every one person who is that wealthy there are dozens of people struggling to put food on the table.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#103

Post by vmception » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:52 AM UTC

twobitshifter wrote: post #95

I think the first step is to admit we have a problem. People don’t like the United States being labeled as anything less than exceptional. If you look at the Amazon workers, Uber drivers, door dashers, etc in this country it’s amazing how hard people can work and not get ahead. 2nd and 3rd jobs can be necessary to just make ends meet. The story that hard work is all it takes in America does need to be questioned.

Talk with any patriotic person and you'll quickly notice that American exceptionalism relies on comparing the United States to the worst countries in the world and ignoring the existence of other developed nations. Eventually followed by "well at least we can talk about it, unlike " and so therefore all indiscretions must be absolved and ignorable since we have the "unique" ability to criticize the government at all, which isn't unique or exceptional or a well implemented vehicle of change.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#104

Post by rfrey » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:52 AM UTC

1cvmask wrote: post #74

rfrey wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised to read this given the political situation in the United States. As an outsider it seems like the entire Trump movement has a strong basis in nationalism and exceptionalism, and it was endorsed by half the country's population.

American exceptionalism (different in meaning to exceptional) as a concept and usage predates over a century. It was in fact a American communist construct: The earliest documented use of the specific term "American exceptionalism" is by American communists in intra-communist disputes in the late 1920s. ….. However, the specific term "American exceptionalism" seems to have originated with American communists in the l…

Thanks, that's a super interesting history of the phrase!

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#105

Post by savant_penguin » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:52 AM UTC

syki wrote: post #87

Railsify wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. The article is using statistics to lie.

Read the actual study. The people who did the study are knowledgeable about the topic. If a non expert can think of a problem with the paper after a few moments of thinking about it then it is highly likely that person’s objections are not valid and are accounted for in the study. A person should not read the study or the article and think, “The reason this is nonsense is X.” Rather the thought should be, “I wonder h…

This is possible, but it's also possible that they are just lying too

Some studies use household income over years to """prove""" that incomes have either fallen or stagnated. They just outright ignore that the size of the household went from 6+ to about 4. In this scenario a constant household income meant about 50% increase in per Capita income

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#106

Post by tcmart14 » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:53 AM UTC

hn8788 wrote: post #16

ipeefreely wrote: post #3

Social mobility is really hard to measure, but all else equal, I think America is the best place in the world for a poor person to become filthy rich (top 0.1%) but not the best place in the world for a poor person to simply transition to middle/upper class.

It could definitely be better, but I think there are more opportunities than most people realize. Joining the military is a big one; you get paid to learn a marketable skill, usually have your college tuition paid for, and you get to move out of your hometown. I knew a few people who joined because it was a quick way to get out of their shitty hometown where the options were sell drugs, or be poor. Knowledge of what'…

It really depends. Some jobs in the military don't gain you a lot of marketable skills. Infantry is a good example. If anything it shows you can complete a few years commitment. Then in some jobs, your military experience doesn't matter. Let take the example of a Navy Corpsman. Functionally, they are equivalent of a Medical Assistant, however when they get out, they don't have the necessary licensing requirements to be a Medical Assistant and may still have to pursue schooling before taking the licensing exam.

So, sometimes it leads to marketable skills, sometimes it doesnt. Sometimes it leads to skills that can transition out into the civilian world, but doesn't because of license and certifications constraints.

But yea, some people do join to get out of shitty small town. I did 5 years in the Navy because in my rural North Carolina town there were 2 other options, make the meth or consume the meth.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#107

Post by forgotmyoldname » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:53 AM UTC

csallen wrote: post #100

forgotmyoldname wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... that doesn't detract from the problem at all. That just says there's a massive wealth divide and that moving up to the mere top 20% (the group 1 out of 5 people belong to) should be considered a ridiculous proposition unless you're born into it. Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic?

> Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic? Why is it a bad thing that so many people are so wealthy? The more people who belong to the so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve group, the better.

I mean, wars were fought over that and revolutions had. People decidedly did not like royalty, large so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve groups, being so far above them. For a while, people much preferred knowing they could work hard or smart and make progress from the bottom to the top 20%.

We're talking about the top 20% here. Not the top 0.1%.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#108

Post by VWWHFSfQ » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:53 AM UTC

dqv wrote: post #94

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it would be easier to become "filthy rich" for a poor person when they start in a nation with free healthcare and education. Poor people in USA have both free healthcare and education. If they're willing to fill-out some forms. Edit: Yes, contrary to the popular belief, poor people in USA do, in fact, get free health care and education.

I almost accepted this and went on my way, but it only tells like 7% of the story. The first thing is that your eligibility stops as soon as you start making more money (i.e. single earner > $17,000). But that increase in money does not cover the new costs for healthcare. Aha! But at such a low income you get the ACA subsidy! But the insurance plans you can get have really high deductibles. If you're making $20,000 a…

> you will be really lucky to have a PCP that does the home work to make sure you are referred in-network

They have whole databases on their computers that do this for them. Maybe they refer you to someone across town, or the next town over. But they're going to try hard to keep you in-network. This is also why Canadians are constantly paying out-of-pocket to come to USA to get their knee surgeries and back surgeries.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#109

Post by kube-system » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:54 AM UTC

atoav wrote: post #27

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it would be easier to become "filthy rich" for a poor person when they start in a nation with free healthcare and education. Poor people in USA have both free healthcare and education. If they're willing to fill-out some forms. Edit: Yes, contrary to the popular belief, poor people in USA do, in fact, get free health care and education.

> If they're willing to fill-out some forms. How does that part work in practise? Are these forms something someone from a poor uneducated background can actually realistically fill out? The way I see it many Americans I had the chance to talk with either take a gamble on their health or they spend not unsignificant time and energy to find their ways through the system. The first choice can turn out just fine, or (in…

It works pretty well. 23% of Americans use Medicaid. (which means it surprisingly covers more people than UK's NHS) About half of all births in the US are paid for by Medicaid.

The Americans you hear about on the news that don't have healthcare are people who have incomes above the eligibility threshold to qualify for Medicaid, or are too young to qualify for Medicare. It's the people in the middle who fall through the cracks in the US.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#110

Post by BLKNSLVR » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:54 AM UTC

The overestimation of social mobility is what explains the people at the bottom voting for governments that promote policies like trickle-down economics that only ever benefit the people at the top.

This is my experience in Australia, which isn't as far along in the progression towards uber-capitalism as the US.