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Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

economist.com

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Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#71

Post by Bukhmanizer »

rpmisms wrote: post #23

Social mobility is very different than economic mobility. It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. Heck, I did it without any college. Social mobility is a different story. I was raised in a rural area, which is essentially a social class of its own. Since becoming an adult, I've found myself gravitating towards working-class people. I like the blu…

Economic mobility is considered a type of social mobility: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#72

Post by fartcannon »

999900000999 wrote: post #57

Social mobility is a very tricky thing. I think every person can succeed as long as they have the courage to cut off people who are counterproductive to that. For example, when I look at my own parents, they're simply self-destructive people who never took responsibility for any of their actions. Whenever I've needed to depend on anyone in my family. I've ultimately been let down, but when it comes to my own efforts.…

It's also not possible for everyone to succeed since it's a zero sum game. Therefore, you should be thanking the people who's life circumstances prevent them from learning to succeed and doubly you should thank your parents for raising you in a way that you were able to surpass them.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#73

Post by AussieWog93 »

echelon wrote: post #8

America is being attacked by pervasive narratives like this. News rags the whole world over are shitting on us, meanwhile authoritarian regimes are rising to power. It's a narrative dismantling, and we're being played like fools. America is still the best country in the world to start a business and take risks. America still has more freedoms (speech especially) than most of the world. (Side note: The left wants to p…

I don't think it's too difficult to pick apart your points (You're ranked 20th in the world for economic freedom, for example), but you're not wrong when you point out that the US cops way more flak than it deserves.

The US is at worst mediocre amongst the developed countries, but people can't shut up about how terrible it is.

Every country has their issues, yet no other developed democracy cops it like the US.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#74

Post by 1cvmask »

rfrey wrote: post #52
systemvoltage wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd just like to point out one thing I've noticed quite a bit and would love Europeans to chime in - that is - European exceptionalism. We, Americans, were known for American exceptionalism but that has eroded to a point where I haven't heard a single good thing about America in the last decade or so. We're shameful and contemptful of our nation. Slightest positive thing is considered nationalistic and right-wing, so…

I'm surprised to read this given the political situation in the United States. As an outsider it seems like the entire Trump movement has a strong basis in nationalism and exceptionalism, and it was endorsed by half the country's population.

American exceptionalism (different in meaning to exceptional) as a concept and usage predates over a century. It was in fact a American communist construct:

The earliest documented use of the specific term "American exceptionalism" is by American communists in intra-communist disputes in the late 1920s.

…..

However, the specific term "American exceptionalism" seems to have originated with American communists in the late 1920s. The earliest documented usage cited by the Oxford English Dictionary is from the Daily Worker, 29 January 1929: "This American 'exceptionalism' applies to the whole tactical line of the C.I. as applied to America."[8] In turn, Soviet leader Joseph Stalin (who was likely aware of this earlier use) condemned the "heresy of American exceptionalism" in a tense discussion with Jay Lovestone of the Communist Party USA, after Lovestone echoed the arguments of other American communists that the U.S. is independent of the Marxist laws of history "thanks to its natural resources, industrial capacity, and absence of rigid class distinctions."[8][10] The term later moved into general use by intellectuals.[10][11] "American exceptionalism" was rarely used after the 1930s until U.S. newspapers popularized it in the 1980s to describe America's cultural and political uniqueness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#75

Post by jollybean »

This is valuable, but there's a giant caveat, in that if you were to do the study on the EU level, it would be much the same.

Sweden is 10 million people, arguably more egalitarian, but moving from 75% in Sweden is not nearly the same thing as going from the 75% of EU.

Swedes at the 25% mark are probably in the 75% percentile for Romania already.

Obviously there is more to it, but it's a tricky comparison.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#76

Post by systemvoltage »

rfrey wrote: post #52
systemvoltage wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd just like to point out one thing I've noticed quite a bit and would love Europeans to chime in - that is - European exceptionalism. We, Americans, were known for American exceptionalism but that has eroded to a point where I haven't heard a single good thing about America in the last decade or so. We're shameful and contemptful of our nation. Slightest positive thing is considered nationalistic and right-wing, so…

I'm surprised to read this given the political situation in the United States. As an outsider it seems like the entire Trump movement has a strong basis in nationalism and exceptionalism, and it was endorsed by half the country's population.

Political rhetoric aside, reading NYTimes or WSJ, I seldom come across any sort of American Exceptionalism especially amongst the tech/SV diaspora. It is quite the opposite - we make fun of American Exceptionalism.

On the otherhand, I hardly ever hear a negative story in the media with regards to EU here in US-media.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#77

Post by Railsify »

refurb wrote: post #58

Again, it's highly problematic defining mobility as "moving from bottom quintile to top quintile". - Moving from bottom quintile to 2nd highest is significant mobility and completely ignored in this analysis. - The analysis ignores the fact that the highest quintile in the US is higher in absolute terms than other countries. So moving from bottom to 4th may give more income than bottom to 5th in other countries. - Th…

Thank you. The article is using statistics to lie.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#78

Post by randmeerkat »

postpawl wrote: post #30
rpmisms wrote: post #23

Social mobility is very different than economic mobility. It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. Heck, I did it without any college. Social mobility is a different story. I was raised in a rural area, which is essentially a social class of its own. Since becoming an adult, I've found myself gravitating towards working-class people. I like the blu…

Only 8% of people in the United States make more than $100k: https://graphics.wsj.com/what-percent/ Don't know if I'd call it easy if it's something only 8 out of 100 people do. It also depends on the area. $100k in SF is a lot different than $100k in the mid-west.

This calculator is from 2016. I’m curious what results this would give after adjusting for inflation and current salary jumps.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#79

Post by geekpowa »

echelon wrote: post #8

America is being attacked by pervasive narratives like this. News rags the whole world over are shitting on us, meanwhile authoritarian regimes are rising to power. It's a narrative dismantling, and we're being played like fools. America is still the best country in the world to start a business and take risks. America still has more freedoms (speech especially) than most of the world. (Side note: The left wants to p…

As a non American I see the US as a country with significant structural problems. On that basis, the narratives are justified.

Especially after Jan 6 riots and the absence of a bipartisan response to this event. It is hard to discount the notion that the US is about 1 or 2 election cycles away from a society changing political crisis. Peaceful transfer of power no longer seems like a given.

1 data based point and 1 anecdote news/item.

1) America is considered a flawed democracy [1].

2) A recent tweet [2] from Gavin Newsom highlights pervasive political fragmentation across the US. Using same legal mechanisms applied by Texas and considered by other red states to curtail abortion access, in this case to curtail access to assault rifles.

Your comment you say "we need more unity". As an outsider I cannot foresee an easy / pragmatic way for the US to move closer to such a goal.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

[2] https://twitter.com/GavinNewsom/status/1469865185493983234

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#80

Post by serverlessmom »

I would be interested in seeing more numbers about where the optimism in American citizens starts to deviate based on what privileged statuses the person holds. If I had to make an educated guess I would posit that white Americans and those who are from older generations are going to be more optimistic about upwards economic and therefore social mobility.
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