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Alarmed by Tesla’s self-driving test, state legislators demand answers from DMV

latimes.com

111–120 of 163 posts

Re: Alarmed by Tesla’s self-driving test, state legislators demand answers from DMV

#111
This is why I drive a big truck. When egomaniacs can trick the government into allowing them to set their half baked creations loose on public roads using unknowing and unwilling third parties as test subjects, I want to be the dominant term in any and all conservation of momentum equations that may ensue.

As an aside, I’ve driven maybe 50,000 miles in my lifetime. Of those, 47,000+ are using pre-2005 vehicles with zero “advanced safety features”. However, I can recall two times in my driving career where I felt collision was imminent, and both of them occurred in the <5% of the time I was driving with “advanced safety features”. Yes, the computer was able to step in and avoid a collision, but it strikes me as odd that the only times I’ve needed it are when it’s available. In my opinion these new cars lull me into a false sense of security where I do not give appropriate attention to road conditions. Has anyone noticed the same? I fear that as the technology gets better and better people will pay less and less attention, putting more and more lives at risk when things inevitably go wrong.

Re: Alarmed by Tesla’s self-driving test, state legislators demand answers from DMV

#112
post #106
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I don’t view it that way as an actual user of the system. I know I am still in full control of the vehicle as is any driver using it. Merely tapping the brakes is hardwired to return control to the driver. The system also has many controls to montior driver attentivness and alert or disable itself if the driver is not attentive. Recently folks have been kicked out of the beta program for lots of reasons so th…

I see the argument, but I don't think driver control/supervision is actually the crux of the issue. If Firestone had a completely new tire technology that was mostly ok but had an elevated risk of spontaneously blowing out, I would not be happy if they were doing their beta testing in public roads regardless of who was driving. The technology being tested seems half baked and not yet ready for testing on a public roa…

Its not clear to me that a general purpose autonomous car can be developed in a vaccum as you mention. Tesla has all the resources in the world to test with their own drivers on closed loops and using simulations however they choose to go this route and open themselves up to significant liability. Given the pace of development of other autonomous cars I think this may be the only viable approach.

Re: Alarmed by Tesla’s self-driving test, state legislators demand answers from DMV

#113
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that self-driving is almost entirely about edge-cases. And machine learning can optimistically only reach about 99% accuracy, so that last 1% of edge cases is where the real problem lies.

Yeah, but the issues the Tesla seems to have in the video above (pedestrians crossing, rail tracks, bus lanes, parked UPS trucks) are hardly 1% edge cases, but common occurrences that are in every city. And it wasn't even rush hour through some crowded European city like Rome with people on scooters zooming in every directions, in poor weather conditions at night, it was broad daylight in a city with barely any traff…

Agree with you, but that area in downtown San Jose is very weird to drive around given their light rail system.

Not defending Tesla for all of those mistakes, but as a human, it’s easy to end up going down the wrong lane.

Re: Alarmed by Tesla’s self-driving test, state legislators demand answers from DMV

#114
post #77
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure 99% of driving is pointing the car straight, keeping it between the lines and avoiding the car in front of you. That's easy and has been essentially solved by dozens of car makers. The "edge" cases are pretty much everything else. There are a near infinite number of possibilities here and it is clear that no one is anywhere near close enough to covering them all. Stopping for a pedestrian when turning right is n…

I get it. However what matters the most in my view is the long term ratio of serious accidents in self-driving vs human driving. There is no need to cover all possibilities for that, right? The only problem with Tesla is IMHO that the name FSD is misleading.

> long term ratio of serious accidents in self-driving vs human driving

Human driver as in: average driver, or best driver?

Re: Alarmed by Tesla’s self-driving test, state legislators demand answers from DMV

#115

Note that there are two “FSD Beta” programs: 1. The paid software unlock for “Full Self Driving” (currently in “beta”) available to everyone, which provides automatic driving from on-ramp to off-ramp, and a handful of parking features like auto-park and summon: https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot#usingautopilot 2. The invite-only “FSD Beta” that unlocks the above FSD features on city streets, which is available t…

I feel confused why 1) they would call both programs by the same name (arguing that an acronym is pretty much the same name) and 2) why the government even allows them to call it Full Self Driving, when there are levels of autonomous driving and I imagine most would assume Full means the highest level, which, Tesla has not yet achieved from everything I've read.

“Beta” classification for the former is a post facto excuse after a fatal crash(there were naturally several). The latter is actual unfinished software(called Beta but more of Alpha/PoC).

Re: Alarmed by Tesla’s self-driving test, state legislators demand answers from DMV

#116
post #67

I really thought the breaks would have been slammed on Tesla's shipping of autonomous car software after the incident where the guy was decapitated by a tractor trailer.

At that time the system was merely lane keep with adaptive cruise control. Any system would have had a similar result at that time.

Not any system. My recollection of that specific event was that is was due to the bright white tractor trailer not being picked up by the Tesla's camera. A system built with an orthogonal sensor could have picked up the trailer despite the camera missing it (e.g. a LIDAR). Proper fusion of those streams would have avoided the issue, and that person would be alive, or at least not dead because of Tesla's poorly engineered system.

Re: Alarmed by Tesla’s self-driving test, state legislators demand answers from DMV

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is the argument that they are already safer than human drivers though and it'd be morally objectionable to stop. Not saying I'm completely on that side, but it is a valid utilitarian argument.

They are safer than some human drivers in some conditions. They are not safer than every human driver in every condition though, so you'd need more to make a valid utilitarian argument.

The utilitarian argument doesn't require that they be better than every human driver in every condition -- just that they be better enough against the average situation that outcomes are net better.

Re: Alarmed by Tesla’s self-driving test, state legislators demand answers from DMV

#118
post #111

This is why I drive a big truck. When egomaniacs can trick the government into allowing them to set their half baked creations loose on public roads using unknowing and unwilling third parties as test subjects, I want to be the dominant term in any and all conservation of momentum equations that may ensue. As an aside, I’ve driven maybe 50,000 miles in my lifetime. Of those, 47,000+ are using pre-2005 vehicles with z…

What does a big truck have to do with safety features? To me, it just sounds like you’re happy to pollute the environment just so you’re sure to annihilate your counter party in an accident.

Re: Alarmed by Tesla’s self-driving test, state legislators demand answers from DMV

#119
post #91
post #57

Actual user of the beta here. Happy to answer any questions that are honest. My opinion is let the technology develop in the open, warts and all.

As someone who shares a road with Teslas, it feels like I have been enrolled in this beta without my consent, and without any tangible benefits to me. What are the arguments for why non-owners should support this approach?

There are several tangible benefits if you drive near a lot of Teslas on autopilot in a highway setting. Besides the advantages of adaptive cruise control (constant speed and set follow distance) it is adding safe lane changes where it always has visbility into blind spots and always activates the blinkers.

This beta adds the same benefits and more on city streets.

Re: Alarmed by Tesla’s self-driving test, state legislators demand answers from DMV

#120
post #118
post #111

This is why I drive a big truck. When egomaniacs can trick the government into allowing them to set their half baked creations loose on public roads using unknowing and unwilling third parties as test subjects, I want to be the dominant term in any and all conservation of momentum equations that may ensue. As an aside, I’ve driven maybe 50,000 miles in my lifetime. Of those, 47,000+ are using pre-2005 vehicles with z…

What does a big truck have to do with safety features? To me, it just sounds like you’re happy to pollute the environment just so you’re sure to annihilate your counter party in an accident.

As I said, momentum. Are you familiar with newton's laws?
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