Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#131

Post by short_sells_poo » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:34 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #93

ceejayoz wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the interesting possibilities for the Fermi Paradox is the fact that we've wiped out the readily accessible deposits of iron, coal, oil, etc. A second go at the industrial revolution would be much harder, if we regressed that far.

Japan has very low quality iron ores. Yet they turned out (arguably) the best steel swords in the world. Constraints don't always lead to bad outcomes.

I thought Japanase steel wasn't all that impressive in absolute terms, rather it was impressive because of the very bad quality ingredients they started with. It also made ownership of a sword (katana) and accompanying paraphernalia only accessible to a small caste of elite warriors. Both the raw materials and the process were hard to come by.

My understanding is that historically the best steels were made in India/Southern-India where wootz steel comes from and that for more than 2000 years the rest of the world was almost bargain tier in comparison. To the degree that samples of wootz steel were brought back to Europe even in the 18th century in an attempt to replicate the process.

I'm only an amateur metalworker though so I hope someone more knowledgeable can correct any errors.

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#132

Post by jccooper » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:37 PM UTC

nathias wrote: post #62

rsynnott wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a _bit_ of a myth; the main reason that Roman-era steam engines went nowhere was that they didn't have the metallurgy to make them practical. Like, they had _watermills_; the idea that they were uninterested in mechanical power because they had slaves doesn't really hold up.

Interesting, what metallurgical skills were they missing? Wouldn't even a very crude steam machine be better than animal harness? Maybe the missing part was coal, burning wood would be very inefficient ...

Romans had bloomery-made wrought iron only, which was a hand-made process of uneven quality, and made only in small batches. The role of carbon (and how to introduce it) was only vaguely known, so quality would vary. It would be quite difficult to make a boiler with bloomery iron. The blast furnace only showed up around 1100.

The Romans could certainly have made a Newcomen-style low-pressure steam engine; the first boilers were made of lead and copper (though they quickly switched to iron). However, those are of only mild usefulness. Perhaps they would have found employment in the Roman world in the same place they did historically: de-watering mines. However, it would have to compete with slaves and mules, and there's not a lot of coal in the Mediterranean world, so fuel costs would be substantial, especially for such an inefficient device.

A more useful high-pressure Watt style engine could perhaps be made of bronze, but the cost would be fairly astronomical. The Romans could pay it, of course, if they wanted to; huge quantities of bronze would be used in ship rams and statues. But they didn't know they could, and it's uncertain that they'd want to if they did.

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#133

Post by AlotOfReading » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

wheelerof4te wrote: post #12

Just think abput all the knowledge that was lost over the centuries and millenia of human civilization. Who are we to think that our technology is the greatest and the most advanced on this planet? We have no conclusive evidence to claim such titles. Ancient people have drawings of strange creatures and devices that descend from the heavens. Even the Pyramids show signs of advanced engineering, such as deep tunnels a…

You're aware that it's perfectly possible to live on the surface in Egypt without air conditioning, right? Like you can just go there and put up a tent if you want.

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#134

Post by rowanG077 » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #103

usrbinbash wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a problem of the craft however, it's a problem of the culture. We are perfectly capable of writing native GUIs, and we have powerful tools for it as well. QTDesigner comes to mind as a well known example. The problem is, about 12 years ago, application design went through a gameification and "toy-i-fication" phase, from which it has yet to recover, because suddenly, everything had to look like it was desig…

It is a culture problem, but it goes back before phones and Javascript. Even before that, application design was usually terrible. Apps were almost universally ugly. Developers just aren't very good at it; it's not in their skill sets. They're good at making apps fast and small, but not at making them usable. Rare companies would hire separate designers, and the apps could be functional and attractive, but they were…

I disagree. Honestly since UI have become the primary domain of designers and "UX" experts they have regressed massively. 15 years ago you opened an application. The feel was consistent. I had a bar at the top which showed me the option in an straightforward manner which allowed to quickly explore and click through to relatively specialized things. Now, every app has it's own UI. And even worse everything is as hidden as possible in the name of being "clean".

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#135

Post by masklinn » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

gpm wrote: post #63

ceejayoz wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the interesting possibilities for the Fermi Paradox is the fact that we've wiped out the readily accessible deposits of iron, coal, oil, etc. A second go at the industrial revolution would be much harder, if we regressed that far.

Coal, yes. Iron, wouldn't the iron we moved to the surface be even more accessible? We didn't destroy it, just rearranged and concentrated it?

> Coal, yes. Iron, wouldn't the iron we moved to the surface be even more accessible? We didn't destroy it, just rearranged and concentrated it?

Might depend how long it takes: because rust is porous and friable, rusting iron should eventually degrade to nothing, and the rust would be difficult to re-concentrate then reduce back to iron.

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#136

Post by gpm » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #135

gpm wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coal, yes. Iron, wouldn't the iron we moved to the surface be even more accessible? We didn't destroy it, just rearranged and concentrated it?

> Coal, yes. Iron, wouldn't the iron we moved to the surface be even more accessible? We didn't destroy it, just rearranged and concentrated it? Might depend how long it takes: because rust is porous and friable, rusting iron should eventually degrade to nothing, and the rust would be difficult to re-concentrate then reduce back to iron.

Would whatever the rust turns into be any less accessible (ignoring availability of coal) than what we started out with though? I don't pretend to know the entire "iron cycle", but it seems like it ought to just be turning back into the same sort of minerals that we originally extracted it from?

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#137

Post by 7thaccount » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 5:06 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #100

jrochkind1 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting if the dinosaurs had tried harder to "evolve in time", they could have better survived an asteroid hit? I don't think that's how evolution works. For humans either.

One thing I sometimes wonder is: if there was a dinosaur species which had reached roughly our level of intelligence and society, would they have left enough of a mark on the world that we could even tell? If they got further than us, tried to capture an asteroid and mine it, could they have wiped themselves out without leaving behind technosignatures that would still be visible?

This is called the "Silurian hypothesis" and is named after the Doctor Who episode that showed an advanced dinosaur race called the "Silurians" that went into cryo millions of years ago.

Some real geologists explored the idea (someone could find the paper and subsequent news articles) and I think the conclusion was that on geological time periods, there might not be much left for us to find.

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#138

Post by ch4s3 » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

scrumper wrote: post #91

ch4s3 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 100- and 500- year plan is ludicrous on it's face. They don't even credibly hit their 5 year plans a lot of the time. The idea of planning something so large and complex so far into the future seems like wishful thinking at best.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Misses on short-term plans are a different concern to progress on a multi-century plan. Pig iron production might've missed its forecast for 2020, but it'd undeniable that China is building tremendous expertise in advanced manufacturing - and at a similar rate to that at which the west is shedding it.

Th narrative of "the west doesn't manufacture anything" is greatly oversold. The US makes more steel than it did 40 years ago, for example. Sure, we make fewer hairs and t-shirts, but it's natural for that stuff to chase lower labor costs. We're also an agricultural powerhouse.

Now, for sure we have fallen a bit behind in making chips, but that may change.

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#139

Post by cruano » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

Joker_vD wrote: post #18

luma wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often wondered if the people making these claims ("you need lasers to make something that flat") are people working in archeology or are actual civil engineers or machinists etc. Talk to a master machinist about how to make a large stone flat with access to ancient technology and I suspect you'll get a handful of plausible answers.

I've seen exactly blue-collars workers arguing for impossibility: it's hard enough to do with modern technology ("I know it first-hand!"), how would you even do it without it?

It's hard only because you don't have hundred of slaves you can put to work 12+ hours until they pass out

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#140

Post by usrbinbash » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 5:11 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #103

usrbinbash wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a problem of the craft however, it's a problem of the culture. We are perfectly capable of writing native GUIs, and we have powerful tools for it as well. QTDesigner comes to mind as a well known example. The problem is, about 12 years ago, application design went through a gameification and "toy-i-fication" phase, from which it has yet to recover, because suddenly, everything had to look like it was desig…

It is a culture problem, but it goes back before phones and Javascript. Even before that, application design was usually terrible. Apps were almost universally ugly. Developers just aren't very good at it; it's not in their skill sets. They're good at making apps fast and small, but not at making them usable. Rare companies would hire separate designers, and the apps could be functional and attractive, but they were…

>They're good at making apps fast and small, but not at making them usable.

I don't know which apps you are talking about, but I use apps built and designed by developers every day, and they all work great.

My problems start when Apps are NOT designed by developers, but rather people who have seen 100 videos about color theory, and know all the latest fonts their social media du jour is excited about, but very little about hardware, programming, and the difference between localhost and accessing a server over cheap WiFi from somewhere else on the planet.

Because these are the "apps" which do something ridiculously simple, but somehow manage to eat up 2-3GiB of RAM and let the laptops fans spin out of control.

>They're not small or fast -- though Moore's Law has made them usable anyway.

Moores Law is over however, and there is no justification for an app that, say, plays locally stored mp3s to require 2GiB of RAM and 10% CPU. If an application thinks this is justified, it will get to know my good friend `rm -rf`, beacause I have vlc running in ncurses mode right now, playing my entire playlist, and its eating less memory than the terminal emulator it's running in ;-)

The answer to bad software, and overloaded/overused/oversold frameworks is not "built more powerful computers" but "make better software".

>There never was a golden age when developers made good, small, fast apps.

Good != Beautifully designed.

Good means small, fast, portable, reliable, easy to install, easy to learn, easy to remove, does its job.