Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How do you fix a stroad?

strongtowns.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 411 posts

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#191

Post by ghaff »

danny_codes wrote: post #117
ghaff wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just (or maybe even primarily) about money. As is indicated in the first part of the OP, changing things means changing things that a lot of people are fine with, affecting many businesses, causing a lot of disruption, etc. I'd be fine with more walkable areas but it's not just about spending money.

IMO this is a question of ignorance. Most Americans simply don't understand that there are (far superior) alternatives to car-dependent suburbia. It's just not on their radar. Hopefully channels like "Not Just Bikes" and our own social dissemination of the walk/bike/transit oriented urban development model will allow more Americans to understand what they're missing. Once enough people in a given urban area realize w…

I don't much care for suburbs and like cities only in moderation. I prefer the country within striking distance of a large city. I'm perfectly aware of what an urban environment is like--I've lived in both Cambridge and NYC--and while there are things I like about it (I'm staying in one this week) it's not something I want full-time.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#192

Post by ehnto »

wilkommen wrote: post #20
lelandbatey wrote: post #2

I love that this highlights an oft-missed truth about Urbanism and shifting our urban landscape: this is going to take a long time. It's going to take many decades, and it's going to require waiting for individual human beings to literally die before we get to start making the changes we want to make. I mean, unless we can get someone really excited about this into federal office in which case it _might_ be possible…

I think a true shift towards Urbanism in our cities may be only possible if there's a whole lot of money in it for somebody with political leverage. But who? I'm not sure. Real estate developers? They're already making money hand over fist building our cities in the shitty car-centric way. When the US made its shift to car-centricity with the interstate highway system, there was a ton of money in it for oil companies…

It's more likely to happen haphazardly, within small council areas over a long time as cities naturally evolve to suit their changing residents.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#193

Post by throwawaysea »

Scott_Sanderson wrote: post #164
throwawaysea wrote: post #134

Why do you need to “fix” a stroad? Not everyone wants to live in a young bicyclist’s idealistic utopia. The reason people like high speed roads is that it saves time, and time matters. Biking and public transit are both slow compared to cars, and most people like the convenience cars offer. The point to point nature of driving, the faster travel speeds, the protection from weather, the capacity for people/cargo, and…

You should check out the NJB you tube links. Stroads aren't fast for car travel. If you want a fast road, design for that. Stroad design gives you the worst of both worlds: slow and terrible for anything other than driving/parking.

I've seen these videos (they've been repeatedly brought up in other similar discussions), and I just am not convinced. It doesn't match my reality across several cities and states, where "stroads" seem totally fine and functional.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#194

Post by stephen_g »

readonthegoapp wrote: post #153

That is a pretty ridiculous term, imo. First, it sounds horrible to say. Second, what is a 'strong road'? Or a 'street road'? The intended definition says something about ideally moving cars as quickly as possible, and making roads and streets economically viable in terms of 'value capture'. I guess that's all well and good if you're a capitalist and primarily care about those things. If, on the other hand, you care…

That's part of the idea, the joke is that 'stroad' is an ugly word to say because they're ugly places.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#195

Post by rdedev »

arsome wrote: post #115
dougmwne wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The itty-bitty bits of America that have any kind of walkable community are incredibly expensive. It’s basically the equivalent of avoiding mediocre American factory food by doing all your shopping at Whole Foods. Why does it have to be a rare luxury to taste what the Europeans have in overflowing abundance?

Because what they have flowing in abundance is a loss in many other ways. Public transit is a generally a worse experience in all but the most urban of places, and even then there's often enough problems that make it significantly less desirable. Biking in the winter? Doable, but also pretty miserable in much of the world. People like personal transportation and big detached houses with yards. Car-centric cities are…

> People like personal transportation and big detached houses with yards

I feel it's more like people are conditioned ro like those things. The first time I visited America, I went to my friend's place. It was just homes with big backyards and nothing else. Coming from india, I was frankly disappointed. Staying in a city now and frankly it has much more charecter than those places

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#196

Post by ItsMonkk »

Aloha wrote: post #169
readonthegoapp wrote: post #153

That is a pretty ridiculous term, imo. First, it sounds horrible to say. Second, what is a 'strong road'? Or a 'street road'? The intended definition says something about ideally moving cars as quickly as possible, and making roads and streets economically viable in terms of 'value capture'. I guess that's all well and good if you're a capitalist and primarily care about those things. If, on the other hand, you care…

I think you nailed this on the head. I like stroads, there is a place for them. I like streets, and I like roads and highways too, I drive everywhere because my workplace is 10 miles from my house. While a walkable neighborhood sounds great, I still gotta drive to work - and even with hub and spoke transit, it's a 15 min car ride or and hour and a half by transit. (I'm lucky, a transit line down a freeway could leave…

> I think we need dense place for those who like living there, and suburban ones for those who don't - plus stuff in between.

We agree. And this is a key point made by Not Just Bikes / StrongTowns - when you have exclusively Stroad infrastructure and Single Family Homes, even those who prefer to drive and live in those homes are worse off.

You need single family homes. You need bike lanes. You need multi-family homes. You need mid-rises. You need mixed-development. You need transit. We need all kinds.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#197

Post by cycomanic »

arsome wrote: post #115
dougmwne wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The itty-bitty bits of America that have any kind of walkable community are incredibly expensive. It’s basically the equivalent of avoiding mediocre American factory food by doing all your shopping at Whole Foods. Why does it have to be a rare luxury to taste what the Europeans have in overflowing abundance?

Because what they have flowing in abundance is a loss in many other ways. Public transit is a generally a worse experience in all but the most urban of places, and even then there's often enough problems that make it significantly less desirable. Biking in the winter? Doable, but also pretty miserable in much of the world. People like personal transportation and big detached houses with yards. Car-centric cities are…

You write like this was made as a conscious decision, based on city planning somehow. There is significant research that shows people are much happier in walkable communities. Moreover, the car centric solution is not scalable as cities grow. Almost 50% of the world population already live in cities worldwide. That number is estimated to grow to 75% over the next 30 years.

It is also interesting that you mention kids. Amongst the poorer and the elderly children are kids the main group to really suffer from the car centric design of cities. Essentially, you completely restrict their mobility, preventing them to move around on their own accord and instead making them relent on parents to drive them somewhere. I would not be surprised if this significantly contributes to the problems of children becoming less and less resilient and independent.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#198

Post by josephcsible »

derefr wrote: post #7
jimmaswell wrote: post #3

I find the premise questionable that stroads are bad. Give a stroad good sidewalks, crosswalks with signs that light up when you hit a button, and a bike path and everybody is well-served. That or just let car people (majority) have these areas that are good for cars and let the anti car people have their crowded little streets with no parking elsewhere.

> areas that are good for cars You're talking about a road. Stroads are not good for cars. Because stroads have crosswalks, and people's driveways opening directly onto them, and many other things, traffic flow and "attentional efficiency" are both far worse than what you'd get from a real separated road with onramps/offramps. Roads are great. Streets are great. Good city planning involves plenty of both. Just like y…

> Roads are great. Streets are great. Good city planning involves plenty of both. Just like your body needs both arteries and capillaries. Stroads don't solve either problem as well as just having both does, and they introduce tons of problems besides.

But it's not like the human body just has the aorta and a bunch of capillaries. It has arteries of every size in between too.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#199

Post by robbedpeter »

ehnto wrote: post #187
robbedpeter wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drive over the meridian, gouge the greenway, and leave tire streaks repeatedly. Then have a friend take pictures and start bugging your local politicians about the lack of consistent access. Have them make the point that paying to continually clean up after people will cost more than putting in a comfortable number of access openings. They'll be able to fix it and look like they're saving the city money at the same t…

Like a desire path for cars! Tired of having to drive around the local park? Just drive through it, the council will get the hint!

We need that road... think of the children!

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#200

Post by josephcsible »

andbberger wrote: post #159
zionic wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> making pedestrians hit a beg button to cross street is just reinforcing that they are trespassing on land that is not for them. But this is true. I see lot of people on this thread assuming everyone just loves living in a human ant colony, and that all we need to do is educate people and they’ll throw their cars, yard, and neighborhood away to live in a 600sqft shit shack 20 stories above “walkable” retail. I’ve do…

no one is claiming education is needed, as much as changing the urban fabric to what it is in most of the developed world. nor one is saying suburbs should stop existing. some people want to live on a farm in the countryside, fine. having a big apartment and living in a walkable area are not mutually exclusive things. bike infra should indeed be separated from cars and pedestrians.

> nor one is saying suburbs should stop existing.

Isn't that one of Strong Towns' major beliefs?

Post reply on HN