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Defund the Police meets the crime wave

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Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#131

Post by rbanffy »

asdff wrote: post #108
r00fus wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TANSTAAFL - who's paying for that gear? How'd it get in the police department's hands "for free"? I don't want to be SWATTED (for script kiddie's Lulz) just because the police have the equipment and need to justify usage of it.

Federal programs transfer this equipment to police force for free other than like shipping and ongoing maintenance(1). Easy for ARs since they already have the gun lube. Harder for the Armored Personel Carrier so that is usually found parked in front of HQ just for show like an old WWII tank. SWATTING is extremely rare and unlikely to ever happen to you or anyone you personally know. Meanwhile there's been plenty of…

> shipping and ongoing maintenance

Get it now and pay forever. Sounds like a sweet deal to the manufacturer.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#132

Post by scrollbar »

ybessyehs654 wrote: post #100
scrollbar wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for sharing this. If I read this article correctly then the author's point is that simply the passage of a bill to be enacted in the future is the cause of increased crime in the present, which seems like a shaky argument to me. Also I'm noticing that the ABC7News article says >More than $17 million will be diverted from the police to violence prevention and other services not involving police. Another $3.6…

The budgets shouldn't be compared in nominal terms because of inflation (6.2%) and the increased costs of pensions (more police officers retiring). Your article also says that 18% of the budget is now allocated to the police as compared to prior year's 20% (not accounting for the $17 million redirection)

Sorry, I don't see why inflation and pensions should be removed from police budgets and not from other budgets. I'm very uninformed about city budgeting but this feels a little "lies, damn lies, and statistics"-y to me. The change in proportional allocation is more convincing, but I'm too ignorant to understand the implications and nuances.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#133

Post by rbanffy »

pixelgeek wrote: post #96
r00fus wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TANSTAAFL - who's paying for that gear? How'd it get in the police department's hands "for free"? I don't want to be SWATTED (for script kiddie's Lulz) just because the police have the equipment and need to justify usage of it.

Well the US taxpayer is paying for it. It is military equipment that is transferred to police departments https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/06/24/pros-j24.html

A surplus that's a side effect of a bad habit of invading other countries and occupying them for decades. Kick the habit and the surplus goes away.

Also, international good will increases.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#134

Post by scrollbar »

ybessyehs654 wrote: post #119
eckmLJE wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actual instances of police funding being reduced are so rare that the author reaches for incidents of low police-citizen interaction following controversial police-on-citizen violence as evidence of what a straw-man version of "defund the police" advocates for. "Defund the police" has to be the most poorly conceived political slogan of all time. It sounds more like a pejorative its opponents came up with.

The article he cites is from a June 24 bill that redirected $17 million from that police budget to violence prevention programs [1] [1] https://abc7news.com/oakland-police-funding-city-council-cut...

Reposting my reply to this comment that you reposted (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29504134)

If I read this article correctly then the author's point is that simply the passage of a bill to be enacted in the future is the cause of increased crime in the present, which seems like a shaky argument to me.

Also I'm noticing that the ABC7News article says

>More than $17 million will be diverted from the police to violence prevention and other services not involving police. Another $3.6 million will be put into the new MACRO program which will basically be a civilian crisis response program within the Oakland Fire Department addressing those in mental health crises.

This means that even assuming this is a net decrease of $20.6 million to budget, this is still giving back only ~half the net increase from this year's budget. So we should still be up $16 million or so vs. 2020

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#135

Post by modriano »

ybessyehs654 wrote: post #119
eckmLJE wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actual instances of police funding being reduced are so rare that the author reaches for incidents of low police-citizen interaction following controversial police-on-citizen violence as evidence of what a straw-man version of "defund the police" advocates for. "Defund the police" has to be the most poorly conceived political slogan of all time. It sounds more like a pejorative its opponents came up with.

The article he cites is from a June 24 bill that redirected $17 million from that police budget to violence prevention programs [1] [1] https://abc7news.com/oakland-police-funding-city-council-cut...

Slight correction. The bill didn't redirect funds, it proposed redirection of funds. In reality, Oakland's police department is getting a larger budget [0].

[0] https://www.ktvu.com/news/oakland-didnt-cut-any-money-from-t...

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#136

Post by confidantlake »

mostertoaster wrote: post #74
scrollbar wrote: post #18

I read most of the article, in which the author implies that defunding the police increases crime, and blames the people in charge of Oakland with this crime. Yet I recalled hearing that police budgets in Oakland were steady to up this year, despite the protests. A quick search seems to confirm this: https://www.ktvu.com/news/oakland-didnt-cut-any-money-from-t... >Despite claims to the contrary, the Oakland City Coun…

I think it is that the movement itself has caused crime to increase. My friend is a police officer and is moving out of my progressive state to a more conservative one. He told me this is happening in nearly every department. His reasoning was that they use to feel like they were on the side of the community, but in many places it is now the community is opposed to the police. Also they don’t risk certain things beca…

If most officers held the brutal ones accountable then there wouldn't be protests.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#137

Post by rascul »

user982 wrote: post #84
Waterluvian wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t put it past upset American cops to simply not do their job properly as a form of protest.

The police in essence said: “If you challenge us, if you insult us, we will no longer protect you.” - https://jacobinmag.com/2020/06/nypd-police-slowdown-defund-d... Police are intentionally allowing crimes specifically to boost the narrative of posts like this.

Police don't seem to be required to protect people anyway.

https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-y...

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#138

Post by giantg2 »

uoaei wrote: post #107
mostertoaster wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is that the movement itself has caused crime to increase. My friend is a police officer and is moving out of my progressive state to a more conservative one. He told me this is happening in nearly every department. His reasoning was that they use to feel like they were on the side of the community, but in many places it is now the community is opposed to the police. Also they don’t risk certain things beca…

If cops aren't willing to do their jobs, and instead let their feelings get in the way, they are negligent in their service and incompetent... to say the least. It is not the jobs of people being policed to watch their own tone so they avoid offending cops. It is the job of cops to serve and protect , full stop. It is well-known that police departments align closely with the cultural segments that (among other things…

You're not necessarily wrong, but if the conditions of any job are such that people are no longer interested in doing it, it becomes harder to attract, replace, and retain people. Reluctance of police to get involved or respond to incidents, law enforcement discretion, is not new and has a long history, including abuses and refusal of service.

The real question is how can we attract and retain officers that want to do the job?

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#139

Post by throwawaygh »

rafale wrote: post #104

All of this debate is based on the bs idea that poverty breeds crime. When in fact it's a bad culture that does. I have seen places in 3rd world countries much poorer than most poor minorities in the US , and they just lived, helping each other out the best they can. But when the culture praises gangsters, being a "bad bitch" or whatever cancerous crap they brag about these days, then you get the issue of crime. Unpo…

> But when the culture praises gangsters, being a "bad bitch" or whatever cancerous crap they brag about these days, then you get the issue of crime.

Funny how upper-middle class kids listen to the same songs and end up working at FAANGs, banks, law firms, hospitals, etc.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#140

Post by rbanffy »

leesalminen wrote: post #110
le_epic_throw wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many lives is your flatscreen worth?

How do you know the criminal who just entered your house uninvited is only there to take your flatscreen? Think quickly, your and your family’s life depends on your decision.

If they expect people to be armed, it's much simpler to just kill them before they can mount a reaction. From the point of view of a criminal who already committed crimes sufficient for life imprisonment, that's a very easy choice.
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