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Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

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Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#431

Post by jay_kyburz »

detaro wrote: post #399
jay_kyburz wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was literately illegal for publicly traded companies not to put profit first unless they were registered as a non profit (or similar special business classes)

This is mostly a myth: https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/04/16/what-are-co...

Thanks. TIL!

Directors must use their powers in “the best interests of the company.” but "business judgment rule gives directors nearly absolute protection from judicial second-guessing about how to best serve the company and its shareholders."

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#432

Post by FpUser »

i_have_an_idea wrote: post #228
matwood wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This brings up the long debated question about China and Russia before them. Is it better to have US/Western companies operating with some concessions or better to boycott. I'm still of the opinion it's better to operate with concessions because there is a chance of influencing the local population over time. Otherwise we end up with a completely siloed environment like has happened with parts of China's tech scene.

I tend to agree. The other drawbacks of a boycott are (obviously) the lost revenue, but also creating a vacuum that will be filled with a powerful, state-backed competitor that may some day operate outside of China as well.

>"...that may some day operate outside..."

You can replace may with will for sure.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#433

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Eelongate wrote: post #296
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has an actual fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. And via survival bias, companies that act purely morally simply cease to exist as they are out competed by companies that focus on profit instead. Such entities simply can't survive via capitalism without, perhaps, government regulation that ensures everyone is playing with the same set of rules.

> Apple has an actual fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. That fiduciary responsibility meme needs to die already. The flimsiest business justification is enough to cover company leadership's ass. Instead of "We refuse to do business with China because it's immoral" they need merely say "because we believe it's in the long term strategic interests of the company."

> That fiduciary responsibility meme needs to die already.

Again, stop it. The companies you want exist, they just go insolvent before you ever notice them. If you want to change the way the companies operate, you have to change the system, you can't just expect companies to "do the right thing" in an environment that penalizes them for that.

You can't have the free market cake and eat the ideological high ground at the same time.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#434

Post by arvinsim »

qeternity wrote: post #73
ipv6ipv4 wrote: post #50

Daring Fireball [1] has another passage from the article which is illuminating with regards to any promises Apple makes about how it will resist governmental pressure to compromise its products, vis-à-vis Apple's CSAM scanning tool. "Sometime in 2014 or early 2015, China’s State Bureau of Surveying and Mapping told members of the Apple Maps team to make the Diaoyu Islands, the objects of a long-running territorial di…

I totally get that people want companies to act with dignity, but the idea that a company, even one as large as Apple, is going to make any sort of difference with respect to China's oddities is wishful thinking. Apple has a business to run. They abide by all sorts of requests in various countries in which they operate. Of course there has to be a line somewhere, I'm just not sure this is it.

Don't be an apologists for these companies.

These megacorps have a big influence on the fabric of society.

They must be held to a higher standard.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#435

Post by seanmcdirmid »

wyattpeak wrote: post #298
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every company is motivated by profits, and yet I have vastly different opinions on the behaviours of different companies. Wrong, it is survival bias. Not every company is motivated by profits, but the ones that survive long enough for you to notice are. If the company isn't motivated by profits, is simply doesn't last long enough to be a major player.

That's fair, I should clarify: every public is motivated by profits. I don't actually think it's survivorship bias, my local coffee shop is good to me for little other reason than the owner and I get on well, and they're not likely to go out of business any time soon. I just didn't specify my point well enough.

Your little coffee shop goes out of business if they don't attract enough business, if they have competitors that provide a better product for example. But even then, you are rewarding their good behavior directly, if you want to scale that up, you and and a bunch of your friends will need to stop buying Apple products to let them know you find their behavior to not be of your liking (and become patrons of the companies that do conform to your moral values). But scaling morality is hard without some sort of restricted market intervention.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#436

Post by intricatedetail »

Aunche wrote: post #413
wolverine876 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems fashionable to preach helplessness. Apple can't change China by themselves, but they are not by themselves. If we all follow that reasoning, then nothing ever happens. To surrender and retreat from the field of battle is a sure way to lose. Despair is a leading psyops tactic - targeted at enemies; let's not help them. It would be interesting to talk about what organizations like Apple can and cannot do; what…

Imagine getting an email from Apple telling you that you're laid off because you job is less important than sending a stern message to China. Apple then loses billions of dollars of revenue to Huawei and Xiaomi, but can you really place a price on feeling warm and fuzzy on the inside? If you want to control what maps Apple shows in China, then ask the government to do it. Assuming you can convince Congress to do anyt…

> Imagine getting an email from Apple telling you that you're laid off

Isn't that exactly what Apple did by moving factories to China?

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#437

Post by firexcy »

MangoCoffee wrote: post #76
pasabagi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. was done in secret Was it? Reading the article, the only 'secret' component was the lobbying, which is obviously done behind closed doors. Everything else is public commitments and public statements - which makes sense, since they were trying to pour oil on troubled chinese waters. FWIW, western media often suggests stuff is 'secret' in china, because they can't read chinese, and all those orientals are awfully…

>western media often suggests stuff is 'secret' in china, because they can't read chinese, and all those orientals are awfully mysterious. this is stupid. BBC Chinese ( https://www.bbc.com/zhongwen/simp ) have many Chinese/people who can speak/read/write Chinese. large Western Media have Chinese staffs just like any large Chinese Media in China, HK or Taiwan with people capable of speak/read/write English.

Not arguing with your point, but it’s not uncommon that western media take a paragraph from Chinese gov docs out of context and call it clandestine despite it being merely formality

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#438

Post by eunos »

option wrote: post #378
listless wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s awful easy to armchair in from afar. On the ground that is a hell of an expectation.

yeah, tell me more. I was one of the students in Kiev, Ukraine during “Orange revolution” in 2004. Yeah, it is scary but not fighting for your future is scarier.

Fighting for having Gorbachev-like sellout as your future leader is much scarier.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#439

Post by Eelongate »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #433
Eelongate wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple has an actual fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. That fiduciary responsibility meme needs to die already. The flimsiest business justification is enough to cover company leadership's ass. Instead of "We refuse to do business with China because it's immoral" they need merely say "because we believe it's in the long term strategic interests of the company."

> That fiduciary responsibility meme needs to die already. Again, stop it. The companies you want exist, they just go insolvent before you ever notice them. If you want to change the way the companies operate, you have to change the system, you can't just expect companies to "do the right thing" in an environment that penalizes them for that. You can't have the free market cake and eat the ideological high ground at…

You take me for what, a libertarian? Do you think you know me? I never said anything about wanting a "free market cake."

Regardless, nothing you said refutes me. "Fiduciary responsibility" does not legally compel Apple to do business in China. If anything, such misconceptions about fiduciary duty are espoused by libertarians online, not rebuked by them.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#440

Post by 8note »

javajosh wrote: post #178
ryandrake wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenStreetMap has a page[1] on this. TLDR: Private individuals surveying is illegal in China, which seems to outlaw the entire OSM project and any participation or contribution. I am not a lawyer or expert on Chinese law so who knows. 1: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/China

That is rather chilling, is it not? That a nation would prevent its citizens from looking around and measuring what they see? I can't help but wonder how the chickens will come home to roost.

An equivalent worry being that the US will nuke you because the president's real estate portfolio didn't go as well as he hoped. National defense can justify all kinds of strange things
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