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Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

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Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#271
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you really should check with an attorney. to me this doesn't pass the sniff test. i work for an open source (AGPL) company, that uses one of my open source (MIT) projects as a core dependency. before i joined, i made sure that any code i write for my library continues to be MIT-licensed, no matter when and where i am writing it. additional code i write for the company also often starts out as a demo/PoC in my MIT rep…

Actually that's why I release the code on Apache/MIT combo. This way, I get to keep my code open source without forcing my company to release the modified code. Also there are no patent related issues as Apache handles that beautifully. This way, both of us get to be happy. All I want is that the original piece of my code is 1) mine for ever. Attribution wise. 2) open source for ever 3) every contributor to the code…

no matter how clever you think you're being, if you have not consulted an IP attorney about this, be prepared for some unpleasant surprises.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you (or anyone) please post it? I'm not even sure what phrase to Google for

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

This basically only protects employees of small businesses. The language makes it seem like anyone working at a FAANG definitely still can't invent anything.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#273

Many years ago I had a job offer at Badoo in the UK. After many rounds of going back-and-forth with the contract, me trying to better understand certain clauses, them going back to the lawyers, etc. I told them I'd be happy to sign if they removed the caluses that stated pretty much anything I created on or off hours belonged to them. They went back to the lawyers and came back to me saying that this is not the first…

In Dutch law it's actually by default the case that your employee can claim the ip of your work, if you want to prevent it you need to put the clause in, most people are not aware. Very disturbing.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#274
post #269
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the exact wording of your employment contract. If it only covers work you did with company property, you're lucky. As far as the law goes, in California (per Labor Code section 2870), employment agreements are allowed to assign the employer IP rights (including copyrights and patent rights) to inventions that satisfy any of the following: - "[Use] the employer’s equipment, supplies, facilities, or trade…

Ohh yes.. These contracts are always maximalist. That's why I never touch areas where my company can even remotely claim involvement. But these are extremely important points that must be always keep in mind by everyone who wants to contribute in open-source.

What you describe in your original comment is that you write code at night with the intent of it being used by your company the next morning. I can't see how that doesn't "relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of the invention to the employer’s business".

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#275

Many years ago I had a job offer at Badoo in the UK. After many rounds of going back-and-forth with the contract, me trying to better understand certain clauses, them going back to the lawyers, etc. I told them I'd be happy to sign if they removed the caluses that stated pretty much anything I created on or off hours belonged to them. They went back to the lawyers and came back to me saying that this is not the first…

To add an anecdote: on my last job search I got offers from two different but very similar companies (both around ~200 people). I got one first, read through the contract, saw the standard clause about owning your whole life. I told them it was a deal-breaker if we couldn't get it changed. I got the standard response "oh we never act on that, lots of people here have side-projects", etc. I told them if that was the p…

Thirded, I would never knowingly work for a company with a clause like that. Whenever I see it, I strike it out and return the signed contract. Usually it's easier for them to just sign and get it over with than to go into a whole thing with legal.

This is startups, though. YMMV with big companies. Still, no way I'd accept them owning my considerable volume of (FOSS) side-projects.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#277

Many years ago I had a job offer at Badoo in the UK. After many rounds of going back-and-forth with the contract, me trying to better understand certain clauses, them going back to the lawyers, etc. I told them I'd be happy to sign if they removed the caluses that stated pretty much anything I created on or off hours belonged to them. They went back to the lawyers and came back to me saying that this is not the first…

This is something I dislike about the rise of DocuSign contracts: with paper, I can cross out clauses before signing and then the ball is in the other party’s court to decide if the result is acceptable. DocuSign makes this sort of flexibility much more difficult and is an implicit bias towards the employer’s side of negotiations. However, in CA at least, these clauses are limited by law and, as long as your employer…

Agreed, it should have an "amend" feature. However, I download the PDF, edit it, sign and send to them to countersign. Then it favors me.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I developed a very large viral kind of game site that was acquired by Fox. I was an hourly dev and I was the only dev, working for a few money guys who made a bunch by paying me to develop it and then selling it literally without informing me. So I went from maintaining it for them (as one of several jobs) to suddenly being called by Fox to hand over the source code and also to sign a contract which said they o…

I am curious. Do you think it was just the 'how' that got this result? More specifically, if they opened with an actual money offer or grudgingly moved to that point eventually, do you think you would sell it. Or was the relationship kinda strained to begin with.

A few things came into play. I have a strong distaste for Fox's politics and lack of journalistic integrity, and I viewed the founders' selling of the property to them as pure greed move, contrary to the intended educational and non-partisan nature of the game (which was about political races). But in spite of that, I felt a professional obligation to assist in the transition, maintenance, and even continued building of the project. Once I had gotten the backend over to them, along with the compiled Flash SWFs, I let them know that I would be available to them at my usual hourly rate.

Part of this just comes down to the nature of large corporations. They were never interested in hiring an independent outside party, under any circumstances. At first, before they realized that their team would need my help, they simply declined my offer.

From my perspective, they were of course free to rewrite or extend for whatever uses the art/product they had purchased. But then they started calling me demanding source code, and explicit in that demand was the contract they wanted me to sign which would have given them ownership rights to it. The problem as I explained was, a good deal of that source was my own, proprietary stuff. Big parts of the game platform shared code DNA with other projects I was working on for other clients. I don't double-bill my time, but that meant each client was coming to me because I had developed a platform and a whole suite of GUI components in Flash that could be rejiggered to meet other needs without having to code everything from scratch each time. That's what made me cost-effective and quick; it's part of the reason I was hired, and my clients understood that when I did code for them, some of that DNA might get reused in unrelated projects. So not only would I be giving away rights to code which other clients had rightful use of (potentially exposing them to lawsuits from Fox), but I would be left without the dozens of modules and packages that made up my toolkit, which was my livelihood.

And all of this they expected me to do for free, in exchange for a contract which would have made me their employee at half my rate. I certainly had no intention of ever becoming a Fox employee, even if they tripled my rate. This fact seemed to elude them.

So, it's not really how they asked - although that was offensive, and their attitude that they had all the power in the situation certainly didn't make me keen to help them. It's that what they were asking for would have destroyed my career. And besides that, I felt I didn't have a right to sell those packages at any price. They refused to acknowledge that they would have to share the code with my future projects and other things already in the wild, and that they had screwed up and didn't own what they thought they did. That they had bought the game, not the platform. If they had asked me for source and not demanded the rights to it, with or without paying me to help them transition, the game might have lasted a long time. Instead they tried to decompile it, couldn't figure it all out, left a half-broken version up for a couple weeks and then abandoned it.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#279
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your example is foolproof, but there's always a bigger fool? How do you prove that your commits weren't made on company time? How do you prove that they weren't made on company laptops? How do you prove that you didn't include trade-secrets in your implementation of these libraries? You can show that your commits were made at hours outside of office hours, you can show that the commits were made with your personal e-…

yeah... somebody needs to always make sure not to be the bigger fool... 1) Git commits have timestamps. 2) Proving I did on company laptop is their onus. Innocent until proven guilty. ;-P 3) I do that. Along with randomisation of sample data. but yeah, you make a very important point in general. 99% of people get screwed on such things. 4) If I do something using company laptop, it is bound to be logged somewhere. Al…

[deleted]

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#280

Many years ago I had a job offer at Badoo in the UK. After many rounds of going back-and-forth with the contract, me trying to better understand certain clauses, them going back to the lawyers, etc. I told them I'd be happy to sign if they removed the caluses that stated pretty much anything I created on or off hours belonged to them. They went back to the lawyers and came back to me saying that this is not the first…

I was once presented with such a contract; After returning them a redacted version of the contract with all the offending clauses and pointing out that it was both abusive and unenforceable (as I was working from a country where these clauses, while not completely uncommon, aren't legal), they still insisted. I did them a counter-offer; I calculated how much money it would cost them to own everything I would produce or think of during the contract, and even told them I would carry a recorder to record every dumb idea, plus a bag to collect all the poop, so they could have all their precious IP. It was a fun discussion.
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