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Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

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Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#181

Post by hogFeast »

_odey wrote: post #39

I've asked this before and never got a straight answer, but I'll ask again: what exact clauses do I need to modify in the employment contract, and what exactly must they say, in order to avoid this sort of situation? (relevant to UK employment that is). If you've solved this for yourself, please tell us all how and what it's written in yours so we can do the same. Here is a link to what my previous employment contrac…

This kind of thing is totally unenforceable in the UK. The corollary of clauses about side projects is that you are unable to work anywhere else whilst you are employed at the company, again totally unenforceable in the UK (the case law against restraint of trade goes back to the 17th century in the UK).

The only exception to this is if the work you are doing outside the contract conflicts/overlaps with the work you are doing within the contract. In that case, if the employer inserted a restraint of trade clause into the contract, that would be enforceable (that is a standard non-compete, which is perfectly legal and sensible).

It is all total nonsense though. UK employers, and lawyers, are a bit mad about this kind of thing. They will insist on things like probationary periods or working "at will" for a period of time...and then they will demand that you yield 24 hours of your time whether awake or asleep to them...whilst they pay you for 7 hours. It is what happens when underemployment is high.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#182

Post by neltnerb »

danschuller wrote: post #151
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience from the other side of the fence is that this is pretty standard, i.e. nobody would really bother with changing the standard contract for one potential employee unless they were perceived as a crucial asset. The people who do the hiring, the ones who make the decisions and the ones who will work with you later - these are very different groups of people, with some (very temporary) overlap. The hiring on…

I've had contracts amended on request, I don't think it's unusual or uncommon. Though I'm a data point of one :)

Honestly, my main complaint about this is that if you consider the types of people that would be willing to demand a contract amendment you can see that this kind of screws over junior employees and people who don't feel they have the social status to push back.

I've also had many contracts amended on request/insistence, but I have a lot of leverage. I shouldn't need a bunch of leverage to get obviously abusive clauses removed, a brand new graduate deserves to be subjected to it no more than I do.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#183

Post by Debugreality »

Generally these kinds of clauses should be viewed as red flags. I had one contract that was something like "We reserve the right to buy all IP from anything you work on while employed here for $1".

I got it removed before joining but looking back it was one of the most toxic placed I'd ever worked and this was just one of a number of red flags.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#184

Post by buro9 »

Under UK law your employer arguably has a claim to your IP if any of the following are true:

1) They asked you to work on this as part of your employment

2) You worked on this during your employed hours

3) You worked on this on employer provided equipment

If you can prove that this is an undertaking of your own (especially if it pre-dates employment) and you avoid doing any work (not even replying to Git issues) during work hours, and only ever on your own hardware... then your employer has no grounds for claim at all.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#185

Post by pawelwentpawel »

Did any of you ever request an example contract that would be signed before starting to go through a marathon of interviews or even negotiating an offer?

Finding a non-negotiable blanket clause like this in a contract would most probably stop me from taking the interviews or at least establish completely different salary expectations. I would understand if the work would be done on company's equipment or during some allocated time but a blanket one like this? If you're not paying me for 168 hours per week and there is no clear conflict of interest, bug off from my side projects I do in my own time.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#186

Post by walshemj »

cassianoleal wrote: post #82

Many years ago I had a job offer at Badoo in the UK. After many rounds of going back-and-forth with the contract, me trying to better understand certain clauses, them going back to the lawyers, etc. I told them I'd be happy to sign if they removed the caluses that stated pretty much anything I created on or off hours belonged to them. They went back to the lawyers and came back to me saying that this is not the first…

you wont get on hours removed - think about it

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#187

Post by dcow »

cassianoleal wrote: post #105
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience from the other side of the fence is that this is pretty standard, i.e. nobody would really bother with changing the standard contract for one potential employee unless they were perceived as a crucial asset. The people who do the hiring, the ones who make the decisions and the ones who will work with you later - these are very different groups of people, with some (very temporary) overlap. The hiring on…

This was the first time I actually came across a clause of this type in an employment contract. I knew of their existence but had never found them in the wild. I sincerely hope enough people refuse to sign those that it becomes a problem for companies. When I go into an employment, I'm agreeing to rent a certain number of hours of my skills to the company's benefit. I'm not agreeing to give the company any kind of co…

We have the same problem with terms of service. Someone wants something (salary, product) and all that registers is “I can have it if I sign/accept”. The only way to fix these things would be for some sort of organization (union) to exist that puts pressure on the industry, or legal simplification/ground rules protecting generally people’s rights.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#188

Post by ajb »

Silhouette wrote: post #109
ajb wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contacts don't override every law. Ever heard of inalienable rights? Those are ones that you can't contact away.

Which "inalienable right" applies here?

In fact in the UK I think you are right, my apologies. It's California where the Labour code protects inventions made in the employees own time:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio....

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#189

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

cassianoleal wrote: post #82

Many years ago I had a job offer at Badoo in the UK. After many rounds of going back-and-forth with the contract, me trying to better understand certain clauses, them going back to the lawyers, etc. I told them I'd be happy to sign if they removed the caluses that stated pretty much anything I created on or off hours belonged to them. They went back to the lawyers and came back to me saying that this is not the first…

This is something I dislike about the rise of DocuSign contracts: with paper, I can cross out clauses before signing and then the ball is in the other party’s court to decide if the result is acceptable. DocuSign makes this sort of flexibility much more difficult and is an implicit bias towards the employer’s side of negotiations.

However, in CA at least, these clauses are limited by law and, as long as your employer doesn’t work on everything, employees have fairly broad protections for side projects that don’t compete with their employer.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#190

Post by fibbberMEN »

cassianoleal wrote: post #82

Many years ago I had a job offer at Badoo in the UK. After many rounds of going back-and-forth with the contract, me trying to better understand certain clauses, them going back to the lawyers, etc. I told them I'd be happy to sign if they removed the caluses that stated pretty much anything I created on or off hours belonged to them. They went back to the lawyers and came back to me saying that this is not the first…

This is why you keep your off work hours.. work not related to your name or identity.
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