Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#531

Post by IG_Semmelweiss » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:48 PM UTC

I think the biggest unsung problems in this saga, is actually one of marketing.

The average person has experience with vaccines that have 3 properties: (1) long lasting, (2) prevent contagion (3) and major symptoms. By calling the mRNA shot a vaccine , the WHO and CDC transferred such properties to the shot. That may have been great for encouraging adoption, but also comes with consequences particularly if two vaccine properties fail to hold, and a 3rd is not flawless.

This was never made clear by anyone of relevance - instead the mantra was "take the shots and all will be well". We oversold the solution.

People took the shots, then behaved as if nothing else mattered. Dropped masks. Started going nuts.

Now we see the results.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#532

Post by monksy » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

detaro wrote: post #487

monksy wrote: post #421

Just a heads up about what is happening in Germany: (Just got back Monday from Hamburg) 1. Entry restriction: You must be vaccinated to enter from nonEU countries (Vaccation must be in the approved list) 2. Most restaraunt/bars/outdoor gatherings are either 2G/3G. The bahn is 3g (so testing as well). Nearly everything else is 2G. This includes the food hall in the airport. Enforcement is at entry. You must show your…

Just to clarify on the 2G / 3G labels, since I don't think it's 100% clear in your comment: 2G is recovered (PCR-validated infection in past 6 months) or vaccinated 3G is that or (quick-)tested 2G+ is 2G and tested (exception: I've once earlier seen it used for 2G or PCR-tested) Quick-tests at test centers (which are all over the place) were free for residents for a long time, then that got removed (IMHO a mistake),…

Nearly everywhere I went required a few or test of the Coronapass app. Some scanned, some saw, and most required to see your id.

Went to St Pauli Weihnachtmarkt and the person I was with was rejected because he didn't have his id, but he did have his bank card with his name on it.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#533

Post by op00to » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

chippy wrote: post #449

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always . This is an absolute statement as division is literally caused by dividing between "sides". You get a divided country when the people within it divides each other into sides. Its never been the case when people have said "our side has caused the division". never. That is the irony you should be finding! If you do finally see this irony you might fin…

No, vaccinations are how we get out and people who are medically able to get them and don’t are hurting each and every human on this planet due to their own hubris.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#534

Post by dhosek » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

worik wrote: post #388

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

In the US, it's because a bunch of demagogues have decided that they will make a lot of money (or retain political power) by saying that vaccines don't work and/or are harmful. Fox News regularly spews this kind of nonsense in its programming and a number of Republican politicians are happy to go along with it.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#535

Post by elvis10ten » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:50 PM UTC

timdaub wrote: post #399

worik wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

No, it's not totalitarian. In Germany we have a constitution that protects all human's right equally. If there's good reasons why you can't receive a vaccination, I'm pretty sure nobody can force you. Not even the state. Go to your doctor to get an attest that exempts you from the mandatory vaccination. Nothing easier than that in Germany. And again: You are just speculating. Nobody knows if a vaccine mandate leaves…

> Nobody knows if a vaccine mandate leaves people behind it tropes. You cannot know it, because it hasn't happened.

An immigrant friend went homeless after Berlin required places like hotels & accommodation houses to be 2g (tested or recovered) only.

He got his vaccine as he wasn’t against them in the first place, he was just a wreck less dumb person. I would argue that other measures would have been less catastrophic while still “punishing” the individual.

Isn’t this an example of being left behind on a similar policy? If I misunderstood you, then my apologies.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#536

Post by cbozeman » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:50 PM UTC

forgotmyoldname wrote: post #485

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

Last weekend I was at a Japanese history museum, and part of the exhibit was on 1600s-1800s medical technology. In the 1870s, Japan had vaccine passports and kept logs of unvaccinated people in order to track them down. It was deemed a huge step forward in developing the country. It’s interesting how some people today think mandatory vaccination is some massive, unprecedented destruction of freedom, when it’s histori…

Given Japan was a nation where a certain class could execute summarily anyone below them, for something as germaine as insulting them, and given what Japan did to Chinese civilians during World War II, you'll forgive me if I don't look to their 1870s ideals as inspiration for living in 2021.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#537

Post by rich_sasha » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:50 PM UTC

Is it, to some extent, a problem of naming and terminology?

When vaccines were first introduced in the UK, there was a great deal of discussion about ethics of forcing people to get them. One really cool view was, of course you can’t force people to inject a chemical into their bodies. But if people choose not to get vaccinated, it’s on them to reduce the risk to others - ie basically subject themselves to lockdown.

I think this is harder to argue with than “forced vaccination”. Sure, don’t get the jab if you don’t want to, but what are you doing instead to not endanger others?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#538

Post by Animats » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:50 PM UTC

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #253

krater23 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which means, vaccination doesn't works. Sounds like the antivaccers are right(?) When you want to see it like this, we will never know enough to do anything. The only thing we can do with things that we can't change is to accept it. It's time to do...

No, vaccinations prevent you from getting sick. It’s the choice between a mild illness and potentially being admitted into the hospital. What we’re starting to see is potential for further variants to evade antibodies, reproduce inside you and thus you spread it. Your immune system is still able to fight the virus easier because the vaccine has trained your immune system to look out for contagions like this virus but…

Yes. Here's some tabular data on hospitalizations and deaths vs. vaccination status[1] Those are easy to monitor. How well vaccination prevents infection is harder to determine.

Also remember, this is still the first generation of vaccines. There are some nasal spray vaccines in testing which look to be much more effective in preventing infection.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037e1.htm#T1_down

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#539

Post by timdaub » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:51 PM UTC

gojomo wrote: post #484

worik wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

Vaccinations are too leaky to "make this virus extinct". Within a few months of vaccination, half or more of people can get mild, but still transmissable, cases of Delta. (Omicron is likely worse; there are already multiple reports of mild cases among those with recent 3rd booster shots.) Honest epidemiologists have been warning about this risk since 2020, and more forcefully when confirmed by early vax results in 20…

Biontech has proven to have 93% efficacy against hospitalization after 6 months [1].

- 1: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#540

Post by UnpossibleJim » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:51 PM UTC

jasonhansel wrote: post #461

Good. Here's hoping the US follows suit. Thankfully the Supreme Court has already settled the constitutionality issue: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449224/

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

This is "A law that authorizes mandatory vaccination during an epidemic of a lethal disease".

Now, I'm vaccinated and support vaccination (though, I'm on the fence about forced vaccination - though I do think it can be a fire-able offense, if you can't telecommute). However, does 1.6% reach the bar of a "sufficiently lethal" disease, especially now that our medical system has regained its footing and is more capable of handling the number of patients now that vaccination rates have reached 70%?

Bodily autonomy is an important right. Forced sterilization, as referred to in the article, was a nightmare. Forced mental care facility commitment, was/is fraught with abuse, especially when we consider lobotomies. Granted, this is nowhere near that, I will agree. But, as you say, precedents will be set about what is or is not legal to circumvent for body autonomy due to an epidemic of a lethal disease.

Is social unrest use a lethal disease, caused by social media? Should steps be taken to "inoculate" us from ourselves?