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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#901

Post by CRConrad »

avl999 wrote: post #463
papreclip wrote: post #435

>"In this message, we have avoided airing specific grievances beyond unaccountability. We've chosen to maintain discretion and confidentiality. We recommend that the broader Rust community and the future Mod Team exercise extreme skepticism of any statements by the Core Team (or members thereof) claiming to illuminate the situation." I guess these are the juicy details they are choosing to omit - https://archive.fo/f…

That seems to be node.js drama... not sure what it has to do with rust.

The same people are -- well, the same person is -- on the Rust core team.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#902

Post by CRConrad »

gdy wrote: post #203
tinco wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The accusation is not vague and it was substantiated. Just not to you. Not to me either, and I think that's a good thing for now. No doubt whoever steps up to become the next mod team will be fully informed by both sides, and hopefully they can make an objective decision about what should and what should not be public. It is probably none of our business anyway. And it's not a claim that everything they would say wou…

"The accusation is not vague and it was substantiated" The public accusation is vague and is not substantiated. What is the reason for it to exist in the first place if not to put blame without giving a chance to refute it?

> The public accusation is vague and is not substantiated.

You're confused about what the public accusation is. It's not about whatever shitty thing someone on the core team originally did; it's about process and structure. Their complaint was that the moderation team can't moderate the core team, because the latter claims not to be under the purview of the former. Does that really need further "substantiation"? And what's "vague" about it?

And no, the details of the original shitty thing don't matter; the same (lack of?) process and structure would apply to any such incident involving one or more members of the core team.

(How can any of this be so hard to understand???)

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#903

Post by CRConrad »

torstenvl wrote: post #190
tinco wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The accusation is not vague and it was substantiated. Just not to you. Not to me either, and I think that's a good thing for now. No doubt whoever steps up to become the next mod team will be fully informed by both sides, and hopefully they can make an objective decision about what should and what should not be public. It is probably none of our business anyway. And it's not a claim that everything they would say wou…

An accusation substantiated in secret is not an accusation substantiated. This is a fundamental principle of justice, dating back centuries.

> An accusation substantiated in secret is not an accusation substantiated.

This is not about whatever the original "accusation" was; it's about process and structure. AIUI, the whole purpose of having a moderation team is so "dirty laundry" of that kind won't have to be aired in public and ruled on by an uninformed lynch mob. They're talking about not being able -- allowed -- to do their job, not the (irrelevant) details of one specific task of the job.

> This is a fundamental principle of justice, dating back centuries.

And this is a forum moderation team, not a court of law.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#904

Post by CRConrad »

zionic wrote: post #387
tinco wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, an immature drama would have people slinging feces. This is a highly mature drama where the arguments are dry, generic and adhere to a strict code of values. No fingers were pointed, and the offended party is taking the high road by resigning. It's not often that people behave in a mature fashion, so I fully understand you did not recognise it for what it is.

Absolutely nothing about this team’s behavior is mature, or reasoned. This appears to be a big win for the rust community.

> Absolutely nothing about this team’s behavior is mature, or reasoned.

Absolutely everything about this team’s behavior is mature and reasoned.

> This appears to be a big win for the rust community.

This appears to show that you have absolutely no idea what this is about.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#905

Post by CRConrad »

q1w2 wrote: post #125
BoorishBears wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, this line of thought is backwards. It stems from seeing the people issues as small stuff and the tech issues as the "real deal"... At the end of the day new features for popular language X are not that life-or-death (although I'm sure some Rust evangelist will claim the safety of it means it could save lives, ignoring things like MISRA) - If someone is being an asshole and damaging moral for real "meatspace" h…

You see - this comment is so vague, I still have no idea what (in the tech) they're fighting about.

What on Earth gave you the idea they're fighting about anything "in the tech"?

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#906

Post by CRConrad »

jacquesm wrote: post #397
loeg wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether it’s better or worse is unknowable.

Yes, because if you accuse a group when you should be accusing an individual you are doing all of the people in the group a disservice. Then you should just say nothing. 'wie A zegt moet ook B zeggen'. If there are major upsides to this approach then I'm not aware of them, do tell.

TAN:

> 'wie A zegt moet ook B zeggen'.

Someone else mentioned "the Russian proverb, 'If you've said A, say B'"... In Swedish it's "Har man sagt A får man säga B". Seems rather international.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#907

Post by torstenvl »

CRConrad wrote: post #903
torstenvl wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An accusation substantiated in secret is not an accusation substantiated. This is a fundamental principle of justice, dating back centuries.

> An accusation substantiated in secret is not an accusation substantiated. This is not about whatever the original "accusation" was; it's about process and structure. AIUI, the whole purpose of having a moderation team is so "dirty laundry" of that kind won't have to be aired in public and ruled on by an uninformed lynch mob. They're talking about not being able -- allowed -- to do their job, not the (irrelevant) de…

>> This is a fundamental principle of justice, dating back centuries.

> And this is a forum moderation team, not a court of law.

Principles of justice apply everywhere. Suggesting they can't be criticized for being unjust, solely because they aren't a court of law... is quite bizarre.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#908

Post by CRConrad »

torstenvl wrote: post #907
CRConrad wrote: post #903

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An accusation substantiated in secret is not an accusation substantiated. This is not about whatever the original "accusation" was; it's about process and structure. AIUI, the whole purpose of having a moderation team is so "dirty laundry" of that kind won't have to be aired in public and ruled on by an uninformed lynch mob. They're talking about not being able -- allowed -- to do their job, not the (irrelevant) de…

>> This is a fundamental principle of justice, dating back centuries. > And this is a forum moderation team, not a court of law. Principles of justice apply everywhere. Suggesting they can't be criticized for being unjust, solely because they aren't a court of law... is quite bizarre.

It's "a fundamental principle of justice" when "justice" is read in the sense of "law". Not necessarily otherwise. Principles of law apply in a court of law, not everywhere.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#909

Post by omegaworks »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #771
omegaworks wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Framing" is irrelevant to my statement. I provided concrete evidence of the two mainstream political parties doing exactly what I said they were doing. How a particular slogan like "defund the police" polls is not relevant to the impact of moving $193 billion annual local dollars of police funding to better structured, community-centered alternatives. Conflating evidence-based policy goals and research with how peop…

> I provided concrete evidence of the two mainstream political parties doing exactly what I said they were doing. Your first article (from Buzzfeed of all places) didn't demonstrate a white nationalist agenda, and if you think the second article supports your point (that Biden is content with whatever white nationalism exists within the Republican party) then I'm not sure we read the same article. The article I read…

>"Defund/abolish the police" policy goals aren't evidence based.

This is absolutely false. Community groups have been putting together actionable, concrete and evidence-based abolition-centered strategies since the first slave-catchers were paid by the state. Educate yourself.

https://www.mpd150.com/

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#910

Post by torstenvl »

CRConrad wrote: post #908
torstenvl wrote: post #907

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> This is a fundamental principle of justice, dating back centuries. > And this is a forum moderation team, not a court of law. Principles of justice apply everywhere. Suggesting they can't be criticized for being unjust, solely because they aren't a court of law... is quite bizarre.

It's "a fundamental principle of justice" when "justice" is read in the sense of "law". Not necessarily otherwise. Principles of law apply in a court of law, not everywhere.

No. There are many systems of law that are unjust. Just like the behavior you are defending. Any accusation "substantiated" in secret is not substantiated at all.
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