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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#181

Post by jimbob45 »

wtf_is_up wrote: post #141
ehutch79 wrote: post #107

Sooooo. Should we not use rust then?

I would hold off until the Core Team is disbanded.

What a silly statement. Rust is, for many reasons, what you should be writing your future projects in. It has many forward-thinking features that represent where the field of SWE is heading.

Letting political disagreements dictate what tech you choose is absolutely the silliest thing you can do (except Oracle, which can affect your bottom line). Use the best tool for the job and ignore the noise.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#183

Post by whimsicalism »

loeg wrote: post #142
babyblueblanket wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be that they cannot censure the offending member in any capacity, due to their core team member status. In that case, resignation is the only thing they have to effectively rebuke behavior.

Public shaming by respected community members is probably somewhat effective. However, they chose not to do that here. Without knowing more, I have to trust their judgment. But I recognize that it’s unsatisfying.

Is there any possibility they are under formal legal contract ie. NDA? Don't know how formal the Rust organization is setup/whether that would be a part in the process of joining the moderation team.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#184

Post by tinco »

gdy wrote: post #158
tinco wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, an immature drama would have people slinging feces. This is a highly mature drama where the arguments are dry, generic and adhere to a strict code of values. No fingers were pointed, and the offended party is taking the high road by resigning. It's not often that people behave in a mature fashion, so I fully understand you did not recognise it for what it is.

What exactly is 'mature' about making a vague accusation, refusing to substantiate it and claiming that if the other side says anything it would be a lie?

The accusation is not vague and it was substantiated. Just not to you. Not to me either, and I think that's a good thing for now. No doubt whoever steps up to become the next mod team will be fully informed by both sides, and hopefully they can make an objective decision about what should and what should not be public. It is probably none of our business anyway.

And it's not a claim that everything they would say would be a lie, it's just a warning. Given the severity of their actions, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and accept that the warning is probably warranted or at least it feels warranted to them.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#185

Post by bluGill »

Daishiman wrote: post #94
lovecg wrote: post #49

Why does a language need a “moderation team”? C++ seems to do fine without one.

Does the C++ core committee have central forums for public discussion of features or is it exclusively a design-by-committee thing with mostly closed-door meetings?

Which meetings? Some are more closed door than others. The big committee meetings are open door, anyone can come (pre covid). There are official ISO votes where you need to have your countries' blessing to vote (one vote per country), but most votes are just straw polls and anyone who shows up can vote.

There are also core teams that are closed door. And sub committees, some of which are more welcoming of outsiders than others. In the end though, if you submit a paper the relevant committee will read it and then invite you to come talk about it (at your expense to get there, but they will find a sponsor if needed).

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#186

Post by quotemstr »

couchand wrote: post #170
quotemstr wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's to say that more contributors are turned off by Rust-style behavioral micromanagement? It's impossible to prove counterfactuals. All we can say for sure is that dozens of critical projects in the past reached an amazing level of quality and importance to humanity without tone police lurking in the background and supervising it all.

If your greatest concern is some technical artifact and not the human beings in the community around you, kindly go touch grass.

It is more important to produce great works than it is to adhere to the behavioral strictures of internet activists.

100 years from now, people will recognize the name "Linux Torvalds". Who will remember the tone police?

Linux is a major accomplishment and a boon for all humanity. All I see the hall monitors accomplishing is the production of drama.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#187

Post by lostcolony »

mbesto wrote: post #140
quotemstr wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterexample: Linux, GCC, Python, and practically the entire free software ecosystem from before the current crazy for hall-monitory-y supervision from above. It is simply demonstrably, factually, clearly not true that a growing community needs the kind of structures that Rust imposed on itself. It really makes me sad that a certain kind of person these days sees some kind of censorious overlord as essential for th…

Linux and Python (not aware of GCC) effectively have BDFLs that can just nix anything (hence the "dictator" in BDFL). So these aren't just really comparable.

And they absolutely turn people off. The thing is, as long as it doesn't turn everyone off, it allows the project to move forward, because even with burned bridges, it leaves ownership clear.

Communal decision making, however, does not have that advantage. If both sides of an issue, so to speak, become turned off of one another, you are more likely to have an abandoned project. There are, of course, other advantages (you don't miss generally accepted "good ideas" because of the particular vision of one person, and you can apply community standards to everyone, rather than having to weigh "continued participation in this project that is important to you" vs "dealing with -that- asshole again"), but that is definitely one con.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#188

Post by bobthechef »

I don't see an explanation anywhere. Why are they resigning? The reason given (a lack of accountability?) doesn't really tell me anything.

If you're going to resign, it helps to clearly explain why with sufficient detail. Maybe they did this elsewhere?

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#189

Post by gdy »

couchand wrote: post #133
znpy wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You call it mature but an outsider would have no idea about what's happening. I have no way of forming an idea whether it's utter bs or if there is something actually going wrong.

Perhaps this message was not written for you?

It's written publicly, so by definition it is written for everyone.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#190

Post by torstenvl »

tinco wrote: post #184
gdy wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is 'mature' about making a vague accusation, refusing to substantiate it and claiming that if the other side says anything it would be a lie?

The accusation is not vague and it was substantiated. Just not to you. Not to me either, and I think that's a good thing for now. No doubt whoever steps up to become the next mod team will be fully informed by both sides, and hopefully they can make an objective decision about what should and what should not be public. It is probably none of our business anyway. And it's not a claim that everything they would say wou…

An accusation substantiated in secret is not an accusation substantiated. This is a fundamental principle of justice, dating back centuries.
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