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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#101
Is there any good way to craft a message like this?

If they outlined specific issues then it would invariably devolve into armchair quarterbacking of those issues rather than the the underlying question of what kinds of checks-and-balances should exist for the Core Team -- gossip, accusations, and political discussions are a lot more fun than debating governance structures.

On the other hand, if no specific issues are raised then people are frustrated by having only a partial understanding. Because it's a lot simpler to evaluate an argument if you already know whose side you're on.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#103
post #92

Is there any tech consequence to this immature drama? I'm confused as to whether I should care or not. If there are consequences on the tech, people need to spell that out. Right now this all seems like some middle-school playground emotional drama. I'm too old to care about that.

No, an immature drama would have people slinging feces. This is a highly mature drama where the arguments are dry, generic and adhere to a strict code of values. No fingers were pointed, and the offended party is taking the high road by resigning.

It's not often that people behave in a mature fashion, so I fully understand you did not recognise it for what it is.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm generally in favor of enforcing high-level "behave professionally" norms in OSS communities. And not as a new phenomenon, either. I've been kick-banning disruptive people from IRC channels for several decades, I've run forums where I appointed mods, and I've always avoided participating in completely unmoderated communities beyond N=20 or so (not worth the headache). But for some reason, the formalization of cond…

How exactly are the groups of people working on various parts of the official ecosystem supposed to coordinate their efforts? The only alternative I've seen is a benevolent dictator, which seems significantly worse for a number of reasons. Edit: it looks like you've removed the part about Teams/Committees.

yea, sorry, I tend to over-use the "edit" button and treat "submit" as "save draft".

> How exactly are the groups of people working on various parts of the official ecosystem supposed to coordinate their efforts? The only alternative I've seen is a benevolent dictator, which seems significantly worse for a number of reasons.

Yeah, I guess I'm just getting old. The idea of an open source project with enough people to form an entire committee of moderators also feels weird, but is apparently fairly normal these days.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#105
post #92

Is there any tech consequence to this immature drama? I'm confused as to whether I should care or not. If there are consequences on the tech, people need to spell that out. Right now this all seems like some middle-school playground emotional drama. I'm too old to care about that.

Sort of agree, but it does have consequences. It raises questions about long-term governance and decision making in Rust, especially as Rust transitions out of Mozilla ownership into a purely public project.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#106
post #54

These organizational breakdowns in tech communities (recently Rust,.NET, Elm) make me much more appreciative of long-running, relatively healthy communities.

Can you elaborate on the Elm breakdown? I don't remember reading about it.

There's been a longstanding issue that a lot of people are unhappy with the level of control that Evan exercises over the development of the language. On top of that, a lot of the development of the core language happens behind closed doors, which has given the impression of stagnation over the past few years.

As I understand it, the fundamental reason for this situation is technical. It is really difficult to enforce purity in a strict language with an FFI, because the behavior of side-effecting functions would be predictable and they'd be easy to use. In contrast, while someone certainly could release a Haskell library that made pervasive use of side-effecting functions, the resulting library would be horribly brittle and no-one would want to use it.

Evan really wants Elm to be pure. To ensure it stays that way, he's banned community packages from using the Javascript FFI. This has been unpopular, but I think he's probably right that this is the only way of keeping the language pure.

It comes back to the usual open source entitlement debate. A lot of people seem to really deeply believe that Evan owes them something, and is required to manage his project along the lines of some kind of standard 'open source' model. He doesn't see it that way.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#108
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very much in the public sphere now though.

Sure, but you can't resign and not have it be a public thing. They said as little as they could

I'm pretty sure you can resign with a lot less "drama", for the lack of a better word. Simply make the PR remove people from the moderators list and say "We don't want to be moderators anymore", but instead they give clues to what could have happen for them to take this action.

I guess you can say that their action was "semi-public". It wasn't trying to be completely private, and neither completely public, but somewhere in-between.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#109
Of course, it's not known what really went on internally, but something like this doesn't really come as a surprise.

This is what you can expect when you put people with a questionable history of adhering to CoCs or are activists rather than developers in critical leadership positions.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#110
post #91
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize that the moderation team were all rust contributors/developers, right?

And without any details at all, it sounds like some people want to bend others to a code of conduct that they never agreed to.

They agreed to the code of conduct by agreeing to be members. Also, regardless of the lack of details, they clearly want the core team to be held to the same standards as every other Rust team.
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