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Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

blog.jetbrains.com

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Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#151

Post by nottorp »

Tajnymag wrote: post #133
mastazi wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent has a point, there are so many things that don't even make sense in other languages, for example in my native language we don't have a word that corresponds to "Refactor", any possible translation would be weird and hard to understand, that's why I've never used an IDE in a language other than English. It's got nothing to do with "the language used in your codebase", whatever you mean by that (programming lang…

Yes, I agree that certain things are complicated to be translated correctly Yes, almost all programming languages use English keywords. Yes, for international collaboration, English is a must. However, many non-native English speakers who are complete programming beginners do tend to have trouble with the locale the editor is in. Imagine you want to change a certain setting but don't know the correct English word for…

The thing is, if you want to stay up to date with programming you cant afford to wait for Information in your native language anyway. Unless youre a complete beginner.

So whats the point in having the menus, debugger etc translated, except for extra confusion?

Would you like the build config files translated too?

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#152

Post by shitlord »

atraac wrote: post #84
agilob wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over year ago JetBrains released a post showing they don't understand why VSCode eats their market: > Still, we don’t deny the information could be a bit skewed – even with the weighting we give to our survey results – given that this is from the JetBrains State of Developer Ecosystem survey, and one of JetBrains main products is IntelliJ IDEA. However, that is not to say that this is not totally unreasonable, as if…

> People moved from IntelliJ to VSC because it was faster, simpler and language-agnostic, instead JetBrains blamed users for not using advanced features like CPU profiling which most people don't use daily. They are jumping on simple-editor train now. Better late than never From my experience, most people who nowadays start programming, flock to vscode because it's free, used in most tutorials and then they simply do…

I switched from a JetBrains IDE to VS Code for one reason: I don't want to build a C++ codebase on my laptop. It requires a lot of processing power, takes a long time, kills the battery, and makes the fan go off.

I'm willing to use VS Code Remote and sacrifice some features to not have to deal with that. My employer doesn't really care if I provision a big EC2 instance for development. I'll take a look at Fleet a little later on.

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#153

Post by EdwardDiego »

chkhd wrote: post #145

I just hope the remote development features will actually work adequately in this. They tried to get that stuff working with existing IDEs multiple times [0][1][2][3], but they are all broken in their unique ways. Whenever I see them announce something new in the remote development space I always jump in right away and try it out, discover it is broken too, and then go back to using VS Code remote dev features. For l…

Code with me works okay. Far better than "Zoom share desktop".

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#154

Post by zRedShift »

torginus wrote: post #5

I really hope it's not Electron-based.

Official response: https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2021/11/29/welcome-to-fleet/...

It’s written in Kotlin mainly, a little bit of Rust for native parts, Skiko (Skija + AWT)

The UI framework is similar to Compose, but we started when Jetpack Compose wasn’t there :)

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#155

Post by quanticle »

wokwokwok wrote: post #117
quanticle wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You’ve already decided that without trying it. What can I say? You’re right. If it’s shit, there no reason you would use it over vscode. Microsoft had a clear incentive to make VSCode not shit: Azure, Visual Studio Online, and, later, Github. But what is JetBrains' incentive to make Fleet good?

How should I know wtf their product plan is? Maybe they want to transition people from “pays x per month” for an IDE license to “pays per hour of usage” on Spaces as a payment model because it’s more granular which means more reliable billing? (Same as yearly -> monthly they did previously? Maybe they have analytics that shows year-on-year decline in desktop IDE usage vs. hosted IDE usage and they want to be part of…

>Come on, jetbrains is many things, and not all of them good, but clueless idiots they are not.

They don't have to be clueless idiots to make bad decisions. Mozilla wasn't staffed by clueless idiots either, but they still did FirefoxOS. Microsoft is definitely not staffed by clueless idiots, but they've made more boneheaded decisions than I can count.

>Why would you cling to vscode and never try anything else, and critique anyone for even trying to make something similar, or maybe better?

I never said I was clinging to VSCode. In this thread, I mentioned that I use both JetBrains products and VSCode. I switch between the repeatedly over the course of a workday, and so I see the contrast between them repeatedly. What I don't understand is why JetBrains is making a product that is like VSCode but with fewer features and less developer mindshare?

You keep saying, "Give it the benefit of the doubt," but why should I do that? Every year JetBrains' products gets slower, more memory hungry, and stagnate in terms of features. Now, instead of actually focusing on their IDE platform, I see them devoting resources first to Spaces, and now to Fleet. Yes, for the moment IntelliJ is still the class leading Java IDE. Kotlin, same, but JetBrains owns Kotlin so it's no surprise that their tooling is the best. But other than those two specific ecosystems, JetBrains is falling behind.

PyCharm used to be peerless, but VSCode caught up. Their Go tooling is behind VSCode (and so far as I can tell, always has been). Their Rust support is inferior. In Typescript and Javascript, the advantage belongs to VSCode, even by your own admission. They might have a better PHP editor, but who cares? PHP isn't nearly as relevant as it used to be.

From my perspective, JetBrains is going down the exact same trajectory that Mozilla went down when Google came out with Chrome. Instead of buckling down and focusing on making their core product truly excellent, they diluted themselves on all sorts of side projects that, while interesting, never had a real chance of replacing the one product that they're known for.

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#156

Post by gnufied »

ricardobeat wrote: post #144
nwatson wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refactoring, "show me where this class, function, variable is used", "show me a class hierarchy", "analyze my code and tell me where I'm not using best practices and suggest the best fixes and apply my selected one", are places where a full-fledged IDE shines. An editor won't do those, or most of those. A 15-minute task turns into a 20-second blip.

VSCode does all of the former, at least for the two main languages I work with, TypeScript and Go. Prettier, ESLint and golangci-lint handle the style checks. JetBrains says the problem is “users are unaware of what an IDE can do” but maybe it is the other way around?

Currently I am using Emacs and Goland as my main IDEs/editors and have tried vscode but the thing is - what vscode can support entirely depends on what LSP server can support. This can make or break vscode. For example - both vscode/emacs (via lsp-mode) throw errors/warnings in multi-module go projects. Even worse, if you are hacking your build chain the way some projects like Kubernetes do(via staging directory), lsp-server refuses to work entirely in `staging/` directory of the project.

I also saw that switching branches can confuse lsp-server.

All of these problems are basically non-existant in Goland(Intellij).So depending on complexity of a project, I would day it is worth using an IDE.

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#157

Post by wiseowise »

asattarmd wrote: post #139
mikkelam wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UI is probably written with compose https://github.com/JetBrains/compose-jb

I believe so as well. Compose is very similar to Electron. Jetbrains Toolbox (which uses compose) uses 500mb memory which is on par with what Electron would use for such a simple app.

Except Electron is 8 years old, and Compose desktop has started active development half a year ago.

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#158

Post by quanticle »

albertzeyer wrote: post #101
quanticle wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Well, I mean to be fair the coding services for most languages in vscode other than js (ie java, c, rust, python, go, php, c#, ruby specifically) suck totally compared to the JB tooling. I have to disagree. JetBrains' tooling is superior for Java and Kotlin. For C#, Visual Studio is pretty good these days, even without Resharper. For everything else VSCode is unquestionably better. I can just point VSCode at a direc…

The last time I compared the Python support in VSCode to PyCharm, the difference was still very huge when it came to more complex situations, where PyCharm usually handled the situation much better. And also the speed. PyCharm was by far much faster (I mean specifically the code parsing, auto completion, etc).

Hard disagree on speed. PyCharm, in my experience, has better support for refactoring and jump-to-definition/declaration, but it comes at a huge cost in speed. PyCharm will quite happily lock up, even on a high-end Macbook Pro, as it reindexes everything, just because you had the temerity to add a package to requirements.txt. VSCode chugs right along, staying responsive, picking up the new code in the background.

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#159

Post by creshal »

spoils19 wrote: post #61
creshal wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. > For years folks have been asking us, “JetBrains, when will you create a lightweight editor?” I sure never did. If anything, I want their IDEs to be more involved and sophisticated. Otherwise I'm likely going to cancel our company subscriptions next year, VSCode is starting to overtake e.g. PyCharm in terms of developer comfort. So I really hope this is just a tech demonstrator to renew the architecture of the…

I've worked in 4 different software shops over the last 15 years. My general observation is the developers who rely on heavily automated/magic tooling are significantly outclassed by those who use the terminal + a basic text editor. Terminal + Vim or Emacs/VSCode (depending on configuration) is not only all you need, it also produces developers who understand the systems they work with. I know a lot of people will di…

I learned programming with paper, pen, match boxes to represent unary turing machines, and printed out language manuals, I'm afraid you can't out-hipster me with just emacs.

And you completely miss the point: I'm fully aware that they exist, and that's the problem. Lightweight yet modular editors are such a crowded market that I don't see a realistic way for JetBrains to successfully compete in it. They don't have the same community momentum that emacs/(neo)vim have, nor do they have the resources of Microsoft. People who like IDEs are the only target demographic they have, it would be foolish to neglect those to muscle into a market crowded with very successful free products.

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