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Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

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Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#231
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My kid's school doesn't have windows that open. It's too new for that.

Our newer buildings don't have windows that open and have interior hallways, so some rooms don't have doors to outside. They have better building ventilation and per-room standalone air filters, though. Even just a single door open makes a big difference, IMO.

I've never attended a school that had doors to the outside from the classroom, honestly. Most, but not all, had windows that open, though.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does weaing a mask so often have downsides? I'm not "anti-mask". I'm just wondering whether we will see studies in 10-20 years about a bunch of children with lung problems from restricted airflow or weird fibers or chemicals, or other pathogens that grew on the masks, or something we haven't thought of yet. Or who knows? Maybe kids will all have super strong lungs. Or maybe lucky ones will have stronger lungs and oth…

The only issue I have seen so far is that constantly exhaling onto your eyes dries them out and can make them more prone to minor infections. Happened to me, doctor told me to not use contacts for a bit and take mask breaks once in a while. Outside of that, medical professionals wear masks all the time. Nurses are often subjects of medical studies because they are an accessible caprice audience. I know of no known ca…

hmmm... thanks for that anecdote. i have been having dry eyes since last year... i thought it was age. But maybe I should try taking breaks when wearing masks.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#233
post #72

> Pumping in adequate amounts of fresh outside air, however engineered, will challenge running costs as well as carbon status. This is wrong. Mechanical Heat Recovery Ventilation (MVHR) is a well established technology which can recycle 96% of the heat from the waste air in a house. It costs about the same to fit as a central heating system. Passive houses have very high Air Changes per Hour (ACH) compared to convent…

"There is no reason not to put MVHR in normal houses" There's no reason in new normal houses, but it is very often impossible to do it sensibly in the existing housing stock. But then there is no reason houses shouldn't be built in factories, shipped to site and assembled. After all we already do that for hotels and the like. Yet that hasn't happened yet either.

I had never heard of MVHR before, but it seems like a very good idea.

I wonder if it would work during wildfires.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your definition of "colder climate" is around 0°C, ugh-huh. It's −15°C where I live, and it's not even winter. In December-January I expect the usual −30-40°C, with down to −50°C for short periods of time. Open your windows for more than two minutes once every few hours and die.

I live in Toronto. You can still open the windows just wear a sweater, sweatpants, and socks. When the polar vortex happened a few years ago we had no power for a week but the -40C is usually just in Jan-Feb.

Toronto is the same latitude as Cannes in southern France.

Sure, it's colder because of wind and ocean patterns, but it's not exactly the ultimate argument in "I know what it's like to live in a cold climate".

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#235

To this day, there is no mandate whatsoever in any public transport to keep windows open. NiH? CDC? Missing in action thanks a lot. Uber could simply ask customers to always ask for windows down. This to me is the biggest unsung crime of the pandemic by govt officials and private industry alike.

Right now, the temperature is -9C/16F. Winter is really just starting, and it'll probably get colder. It isn't snowing right now.

I'm not convinced windows being down is going to do anything outside of making folks cold. Air circulation happens still because cars have heating systems that draw air in from the outside.

And fwiw, the busses here do not have windows that open (outside of emergency panels). I'm in Norway, though, and folks were pretty decent at keeping distance even before the pandemic.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#236
post #72

> Pumping in adequate amounts of fresh outside air, however engineered, will challenge running costs as well as carbon status. This is wrong. Mechanical Heat Recovery Ventilation (MVHR) is a well established technology which can recycle 96% of the heat from the waste air in a house. It costs about the same to fit as a central heating system. Passive houses have very high Air Changes per Hour (ACH) compared to convent…

Many non-passive house buildings have 0.4ACH or more without mechanical ventilation. The purpose of an MVHR is to provide similar trickle rates of ventilation without the high energy cost, but the goal of "opening a window" is to provide much higher airflow rates, in which case the cost would be much higher with mechanical ventilation.

It looks like 3-6ACH[1] or more is desirable to control the spread of infection. This would require very expensive MVHR systems to be installed. Realistically much larger units, probably more than one unit, as well as large ducting would need to be installed.

Such high flow rates would come with other problems: These flow rates would lead to unacceptably dry interior environments with typical heat exchangers, though there exist heat exchangers that retain some moisture. Higher flow rates also achieve lower heat exchanger efficiencies, and the power required to move the air would not be insignificant either.

[1] https://qz.com/1907977/how-to-check-air-ventilation-to-preve...

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#237
post #72

> Pumping in adequate amounts of fresh outside air, however engineered, will challenge running costs as well as carbon status. This is wrong. Mechanical Heat Recovery Ventilation (MVHR) is a well established technology which can recycle 96% of the heat from the waste air in a house. It costs about the same to fit as a central heating system. Passive houses have very high Air Changes per Hour (ACH) compared to convent…

On this topic, HVAC often come with an "Air scavenging" feature. After reading manuals and searching online I cannot figure out what this feature actually does. Is it another name for MVHR?

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#238
post #226
post #72

> Pumping in adequate amounts of fresh outside air, however engineered, will challenge running costs as well as carbon status. This is wrong. Mechanical Heat Recovery Ventilation (MVHR) is a well established technology which can recycle 96% of the heat from the waste air in a house. It costs about the same to fit as a central heating system. Passive houses have very high Air Changes per Hour (ACH) compared to convent…

I think it’s not wrong when considered in the context of already existing large buildings (office complexes, public transit stations, department stores, restaurants, hotels, etc) as opposed to newly built individual houses (where, arguably, increased ventilation may not have that much effect on infection spread) Or are you saying it’s still cost-efficient to retrofit in a high-rise from the day 1980s?

Most of those places are already very well ventilated. You’re not catching covid in the train station, you’re catching it while sharing 1m² with 4 other people on the train. Or because you’re in a crowded restaurant and you’re between the air extract point and the person on the table next to you who has covid. I can’t see how it would be different if the air circulation is because of open windows or mechanical ventilation in these situations.

Most high rise offices since the 50/60’s will have a mechanical ventilation system of some kind already but it may be quite energy inefficient. Any building with an existing air con system is already doing much more air changes than a building without ducted air. Offices need these systems for active cooling and heat rejection for fairly large parts of the year because the concentration of people and computers inside tends to overheat the building.

Hotels are an interesting one, I’m not an expert on hotel design but it’s possible that some hotels use positive pressure ventilation to supply air to the rooms and passive extraction through the en-suite bathrooms. In that case when you open the room door you let a blob of Covid air out into the corridor? But the corridor should probably also be at positive pressure to stop smoke from a fire in a room from blocking the escape route. Not sure about this one.

I would hypothesise that people mostly catch covid in Pubs, Clubs, Restaurants, Schools, each other’s houses and other specific hard to solve confined situations where we can’t avoid breathing each other’s exhaled air like lift cars and underground trains. If money were to be spent retrofitting heat recovery ventilation anywhere. Schools would be the best place to start.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like they were referring to cooling air, not heating it. Is there an energy-efficient strategy for that? If not, then it doesn't seem like they were mistaken, just imprecise.

It's the same system. Heat recovery works both ways, maintaining heat out the outlets or maintaining heat at the inlets

This isn't true. Most MVHRs have a summer bypass mode in which they admit the exterior air without retaining any interior heat, but they do not cool the air entering the house.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In much of the world for much of the year, it doesn't get below freezing for at least part of the day. The solution to the heating problem is simple then: simply don't. Open windows when it's above 50F / 10C (to give a healthy safety margin to the water pipes) and tell people to wear sweaters. Do this where it's possible and you'll offset the energy expenditure of heating in places were it actually earnestly gets col…

> Open windows when it's above 50F / 10C (to give a healthy safety margin to the water pipes) and tell people to wear sweaters. Yeah, please don't. There's a comfortable level somewhere above that, but at 10C I wouldn't be able to function in context of work / school. With worse circulation you just end up with your hands / feet feeling like they're constantly freezing. Some teachers thought that's a good idea, but I…

>Some teachers thought that's a good idea, but I can tell you writing in gloves just gets annoying.

At risk of starting a Pythonesque masochism contest, you're lucky you were allowed gloves! Our teachers wouldn't let us wear coats or gloves when the heating broke down because "we can't see your uniform and it doesn't look smart, anyway it's not that cold". I went to a comprehensive school sandwiched between two private schools so of course my school had an institutional inferiority complex!

Also there's no way I could work well at 10C/50F, I think a company that insisted on such conditions would have trouble with resignations pretty quickly!

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