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Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

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Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#141

Post by mlyle »

pstoll wrote: post #127
mlyle wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a LEED rating thing. If you can rely upon windows entirely for ventilation and thermal control, that's great. Otherwise, windows that open leak more air when you don't want them to. They also let in more humid air, which in turn has a higher specific heat capacity and requires more energy to dry the air later. Their usage tends to be uneven, so you often have open windows while AC is also running elsewhere or in…

We have a local school being built. This was the argument for no operable windows. Except … a pandemic! We are optimizing for the wrong thing IMO at the expense of simple practical, human driven comfort. Same reason we don’t have windows on the local trains anymore. Practically for people in classrooms at random times, being able to open a window should be an option. Only central control of when the ventilation / hea…

It's an interesting tradeoff.

I like having windows that will open in my classroom. But in the larger buildings with central, indoor hallways, the benefit of windows is smaller (much less outer surface area vs. volume of space) and the potential costs are higher.

Aside from pandemic-proofing, the main benefit I get is from having more ventilation when I do things that don't need to be under a hood, but still produce fumes/smoke. E.g. soldering.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#142

Post by GekkePrutser »

WalterBright wrote: post #80
anonporridge wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A potentially fantastic outcome from all this is that many more public and private spaces will be designed and retrofitted with very good ventilation. Beyond curbing the spread of natural airborne diseases, it also may decrease the attack vector in our societies for airborne bio-terrorism/warfare. And even beyond all that, we're becoming increasingly aware of how important clean air is for our overall health even wit…

A couple years ago I bought a CO2 meter, and was astonished to see it going over 1000ppm in my office. Since then, I always keep the window cracked, keeping the CO2 levels usually under 500. The meter was one of the best investments I ever made.

Yeah when our office got those meters it suddenly explained why I got pounding headaches after long days. I'm pretty sensitive to it apparently. I've seen it go as high as 1400 :(

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#143

Post by lanecwagner »

sharperguy wrote: post #50

A metaphor I was thinking of earlier. If a guy is going to piss on you, you're going to be happy if he has to keep a pair of speedos on as he attempts it. You could also just move further away from him. But if you're both swimming in the same pool while he pisses in it, those speedos will make little difference anymore. Neither will your distance from him help very much. What will help much more is the amount of wate…

not a great metaphor imo. gives the impression masks and distance do nothing, and we know they do

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#144

Post by Macha »

Eelongate wrote: post #96
willyt wrote: post #72

> Pumping in adequate amounts of fresh outside air, however engineered, will challenge running costs as well as carbon status. This is wrong. Mechanical Heat Recovery Ventilation (MVHR) is a well established technology which can recycle 96% of the heat from the waste air in a house. It costs about the same to fit as a central heating system. Passive houses have very high Air Changes per Hour (ACH) compared to convent…

In much of the world for much of the year, it doesn't get below freezing for at least part of the day. The solution to the heating problem is simple then: simply don't. Open windows when it's above 50F / 10C (to give a healthy safety margin to the water pipes) and tell people to wear sweaters. Do this where it's possible and you'll offset the energy expenditure of heating in places were it actually earnestly gets col…

> Open windows when it's above 50F / 10C

https://www.rte.ie/weather/22259-dublin/

I live in Ireland, it's not typically considered a cold climate. But it won't be above 10C this week, and probably the case for most weeks until mid-March so this advice is less globally accurate than you might imagine.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#145

Post by GekkePrutser »

Eelongate wrote: post #107
inamberclad wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the end-game there? Opening windows doesn't eradicate the virus. Admittedly, we don't have a clear end-game as things stand, but what you suggest is just another mitigation factor, not a solution.

The end game is that we get to all enjoy some fresh air, isn't that enough? I've been doing this for years, long before any covid.

Well if we can eventually drop the masks. Otherwise the air is still hot, humid and stale. I personally have anxieties due to them (related to an almost-suffocating experience in the past). But I know many people suffer with them for different reasons.

I know we need the masks now but it shouldn't be a permanent solution. It's very invasive. For 30m on the metro perhaps but not all day at work, school... If covid isn't doing away there must be a better way to reduce levels enough. After all it's only a mitigating measure, not a 100% preventative one.

I air my house every day too. Because I love the fresh air.

I hope that in the mean time we'll get powered masks though that don't have all these drawbacks. Especially for people like me with medical issues. Razer has one already but it's impossible to get (I've tried getting one on the last drops and they sell out before my order page loads) and it looks too much like a massive gas mask IMO. It's not suitable for a lot of situations. Still, I'd get one if I could :'(

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#146

Post by taeric »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #131
taeric wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This angle feels like giving up on all of the covid deaths. And is somewhat at odds with all cause mortality being attributed to undiagnosed covid. I am open to the argument. Just feels to be begging a lot of other questions.

I don't feel as if I'm arguing for "giving up on all the covid deaths". On the contrary in fact: (1) likelihood of death decreases with the passing of time, because of improved treatment (and maybe testing also). So to minimize death, you want your exposure to be delayed as long as possible. (2) there is reasonably convincing evidence that exposure level is significant in determining severity post-infection. Therefor…

I guess you skirted closer to the flatten the curve argument than I was comfortable with. Seems that, in retro, it caused folks to take precautions to try and keep hospitals clear, and ultimately threw a lot of nursing homes under the bus.

That said, your first point is a good one. If made difficult by how many later waves in most places have similar death peaks to earlier ones.

I still think we are far away from really having evidence on any good strategy, sadly. All of the places that had it under control seem to have lost said control.

Which, ultimately, is a good enough argument for me, to not just give up on things that have any chance of helping. Sucks, as I am clearly open to the arguments that deniers use. Which... I'm not trying to further that angle, either.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#147

Post by taeric »

rtsil wrote: post #132
taeric wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Annoyingly, my intuitive impression is that we are still far more ignorant than we'd care to admit. Being in a place where we all willingly wear masks to grocery shop, I get the impression we are far more cautious than most places. Still, I expect it is just a matter of time before we are exposed. Why? I honestly don't know. It isn't lack of wanting to be safer. But it has gotten fatiguing to try to keep up with what…

> I remember the start when folks wiped down delivered groceries. Even isolated them for a few days. I still isolate groceries for at least 6 hours, delivered or not. Still clean my hands or wear a glove when I touch something outside. I haven't got sick since Covid appeared. I used to have pretty severe nasal allergies (or so doctors told me) at least once a month, I haven't had one episode since early 2020. This is…

I can assume that if you are taking those measures, you also avoid crowds of any sort. Which probably does a lot of the heavy lifting for you.

For me, I also saw that we had fewer sicknesses when the kids were all home schooled. Not shocking, we got a ton of bugs when they started school back. Not sure how sustainable it is to have such isolated lives, though. :(

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#148

Post by Izkata »

newaccount74 wrote: post #42
Madmallard wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

? If your windows are open you will trend toward outside weather. If you’re in a dry climate then yeah it’ll be dryer but the reverse is also true. Outside air is far better than inside nearly everywhere in the world

Cold air can hold a lot less water vapor than warm air. If you open the window when it's cold outside, then the air will become very dry as it heats up. So even if you have 80% humidity outside on a cold winters day, once that air gets inside and heats up to room temperature it's going to be like 20% humidity.

That happens even if you don't open your windows, since buildings aren't perfectly sealed.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#149

Post by Eelongate »

Macha wrote: post #144
Eelongate wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In much of the world for much of the year, it doesn't get below freezing for at least part of the day. The solution to the heating problem is simple then: simply don't. Open windows when it's above 50F / 10C (to give a healthy safety margin to the water pipes) and tell people to wear sweaters. Do this where it's possible and you'll offset the energy expenditure of heating in places were it actually earnestly gets col…

> Open windows when it's above 50F / 10C https://www.rte.ie/weather/22259-dublin/ I live in Ireland, it's not typically considered a cold climate. But it won't be above 10C this week, and probably the case for most weeks until mid-March so this advice is less globally accurate than you might imagine.

The forecasts for Dublin I'm seeing predict 10C or higher for most of Tuesday. Regardless, my advice is to keep the windows open where possible and it will offset the energy needed where it isn't. And the other component of my advice, turning down the thermostat in places where it gets cold, is certainly applicable in Ireland. You don't need 25C indoors in the winter.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#150

Post by Izkata »

coolso wrote: post #71
selimthegrim wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine all those anti vaxxers' complaints about "It's being rushed out too quickly" and "It hasn't been studied yet" magnified with your proposed express schedule. Do you think there wouldn't have been vaccine hesitancy in those 100k?

> Imagine all those anti vaxxers' complaints about "It's being rushed out too quickly" and "It hasn't been studied yet" Listen, CNN [0] and Biden [1] changed their mind about all of that as soon as the election was over, so don’t be too hard on them. [0] https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/health/eua-coronavirus-vaccin... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/us/politics/biden-trump-c...

As much as the flagged sibling comment looks like a flippant joke, it's true: a few weeks ago I saw a posted image of a new school textbook that, in the "recent history" section, altered the timeline to make it look like the Biden administration had a hand in creating the vaccines, rather than Trump's Operation Warp Speed.
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