Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

bmj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 298 posts

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#131

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

taeric wrote: post #106
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The precautions required to guarantee zero exposure to an airborne virus are incredibly more substantial than most of us will ever be able to carry out in ordinary life (think biohazard labs). So yes, almost all of us are going to be exposed to SARS-COV-2 at some point. Slowdowns are doubleplus good because the biggest risk from the disease is related to its impact on public health care systems rather than serious il…

This angle feels like giving up on all of the covid deaths. And is somewhat at odds with all cause mortality being attributed to undiagnosed covid. I am open to the argument. Just feels to be begging a lot of other questions.

I don't feel as if I'm arguing for "giving up on all the covid deaths". On the contrary in fact:

(1) likelihood of death decreases with the passing of time, because of improved treatment (and maybe testing also). So to minimize death, you want your exposure to be delayed as long as possible.

(2) there is reasonably convincing evidence that exposure level is significant in determining severity post-infection. Therefore you want to live within a community and with habits that keep you away from high exposure as much as possible.

So, the same strategies that slowdown exposure also help to reduce deaths

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#132

Post by rtsil »

taeric wrote: post #34
nicoburns wrote: post #4

This agrees with my intuitive impression of everything I've read on Covid-19: that the primary transmission vector is through the being in unventilated or poorly ventilated enclosed spaces with an infected person for ~15 minutes or longer. I definitely feel like neither governmental policies or people's individual precautions and behaviours quite reflect that reality.

Annoyingly, my intuitive impression is that we are still far more ignorant than we'd care to admit. Being in a place where we all willingly wear masks to grocery shop, I get the impression we are far more cautious than most places. Still, I expect it is just a matter of time before we are exposed. Why? I honestly don't know. It isn't lack of wanting to be safer. But it has gotten fatiguing to try to keep up with what…

> I remember the start when folks wiped down delivered groceries. Even isolated them for a few days.

I still isolate groceries for at least 6 hours, delivered or not. Still clean my hands or wear a glove when I touch something outside.

I haven't got sick since Covid appeared. I used to have pretty severe nasal allergies (or so doctors told me) at least once a month, I haven't had one episode since early 2020. This is a life-changer for me.

Same thing for the usual minor health issues such as cold, cough, sore throat. All gone.

So I keep my Covid routine, probably even if Covid goes away, it's not that much of an effort and the results have been spectacular.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#133

Post by tehjoker »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #90
taeric wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Annoyingly, my intuitive impression is that we are still far more ignorant than we'd care to admit. Being in a place where we all willingly wear masks to grocery shop, I get the impression we are far more cautious than most places. Still, I expect it is just a matter of time before we are exposed. Why? I honestly don't know. It isn't lack of wanting to be safer. But it has gotten fatiguing to try to keep up with what…

The precautions required to guarantee zero exposure to an airborne virus are incredibly more substantial than most of us will ever be able to carry out in ordinary life (think biohazard labs). So yes, almost all of us are going to be exposed to SARS-COV-2 at some point. Slowdowns are doubleplus good because the biggest risk from the disease is related to its impact on public health care systems rather than serious il…

Zero is ideal, but a reasonable reduction is acceptable if we can pile together a number of different mitigations to get the effective transmission rate below 1.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#134

Post by jl2718 »

delecti wrote: post #25
nicoburns wrote: post #4

This agrees with my intuitive impression of everything I've read on Covid-19: that the primary transmission vector is through the being in unventilated or poorly ventilated enclosed spaces with an infected person for ~15 minutes or longer. I definitely feel like neither governmental policies or people's individual precautions and behaviours quite reflect that reality.

For better or worse, the medical community is usually hesitant to recommend things before studies have been done, and some "common sense" advice is difficult to test.

But some things have no potential for harm, and they should be recommended with higher priority than something that could be harmful at the same likelihood of efficacy. It seems to me that the recommendations are mostly based on how well it provides a predictable financial benefit to a specific investment (mail-order, pharma, etc).

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#135

Post by harry8 »

nradov wrote: post #119
harry8 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're all exposed to traffic accidents. So we take precautions with road infrastructure (eg traffic lights, zebra crossings etc). Going from being exposed occasionally to being exposed less often than that is a good thing! Same as crossing a road being exposed to being hit by a vehicle. You don't have to "just accept it". Minimising risk given acceptable levels of cost of doing so is a good thing! Think of better ven…

You're not thinking things through. You might be able to delay exposure for a while but you won't be able to prevent it forever.

No you're not. Really. I think you're living in a world where you believe if you've had covid you're done and you will never get it or future variants again. That's not how it is. The less often you contract a covid-19 variant the healthier /you/ are likely to be. For the immunocompromised contracting it /never/ is attainable. The less of it around, the lower the velocity of transmission the easier that goal is to attain.

"just give up" is not acceptable policy in either intent or outcome. It's mental, in fact.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#136

Post by nradov »

harry8 wrote: post #135
nradov wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not thinking things through. You might be able to delay exposure for a while but you won't be able to prevent it forever.

No you're not. Really. I think you're living in a world where you believe if you've had covid you're done and you will never get it or future variants again. That's not how it is. The less often you contract a covid-19 variant the healthier /you/ are likely to be. For the immunocompromised contracting it /never/ is attainable. The less of it around, the lower the velocity of transmission the easier that goal is to at…

Nonsense. SARS-CoV-2 is just one more endemic coronavirus. No one is giving up; the vaccines and other treatments reduce the infection fatality rate close to zero.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2108120

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#137

Post by dghughes »

It was -2C here at today noon and winter's barely begun, it's actually warmer than usual it should be about -10C.

Plus I just spent $420 for half a tank of heating fuel. Fuel oil prices currently $1.18/liter are jumping and next time it will probably be $500 for the same amount of oil.

No I'm not opening the windows. Plus the pipes would burst if it got cold enough inside the house. If I want fresh air I'll get that when shovelling snow.

School and business wold be in the same situation most use fuel oil or local steam line. But wasting energy by opening windows is not a solution during a northern winter.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#138

Post by GhettoComputers »

chillwaves wrote: post #5
GhettoComputers wrote: post #2

They already solved this in NYC and Chicago with extra hot radiators by windows. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-05/the-curio... The “spent breath” of the occupants of poorly ventilated homes contributed to 40% of the deaths in the country, he claimed, and often said “man’s own breath is his greatest enemy.” He would spend decades promoting the cause, designing ventilation schemes for buildings, penni…

There is also a problem of comfortable humidity levels. If you just have open windows, it seems like you will have very dry air. There are modern solutions for air exchanges that do retain some of the heat and moisture while allowing for fresh air to ventilate the indoor space. https://www.explainthatstuff.com/heat-recovery-ventilation.h...

Dry air is a problem with any heating, but for those who are interested in a solution that currently exists (it’s a bit wasteful), is curious why they get too hot, or wants an easy solution without a new HVAC installation it’s very simple.

Our radiator had a pan for water over the heater to keep humidity comfortable we’d refill.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#139

Post by Eelongate »

solitus wrote: post #130
Eelongate wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The end game is that we get to all enjoy some fresh air, isn't that enough? I've been doing this for years, long before any covid.

Where do you live?

Seattle. Before then, New York.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#140

Post by mlyle »

jkhdigital wrote: post #117
mlyle wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a teacher at a school. - We eat outside. - We have filters upgraded to MERV-13 and the fans run the entire school day. - We have windows and doors open on all classrooms, except for A) a few that don't open outside, or B) when it's rainy/windy to the point it's not possible. We have small, secondary HEPA filters that we run in those circumstances. (Often, we're blaring AC or heat into a room with all doors and wi…

So let me ask you: with such well-ventilated facilities, what is the marginal benefit of masking? And is this benefit worth the difficult-to-quantify but very real cost of students being unable to see the faces of their classmates?

> So let me ask you: with such well-ventilated facilities, what is the marginal benefit of masking?

It's difficult to estimate. Of course, even with all this care, not everywhere is equally well ventilated. My room is wide open to the outside, but there are other rooms depending on central air and the room filter which may not be as well off. Trying to form policy on a room by room basis would be nutty.

> And is this benefit worth the difficult-to-quantify but very real cost of students being unable to see the faces of their classmates?

We do go outside quite a bit, and most students choose to not mask outside and thus see their classmates then. There's also the very real benefit of making many students-- and me, their teacher-- feel safer.

IMO the biggest cost is it's slightly harder to understand each other and we have a few more misunderstandings per day.

Post reply on HN