Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation • Hacker News Board

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#111

Post by chiefalchemist » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 1:19 AM UTC

Eelongate wrote: post #96

willyt wrote: post #72

> Pumping in adequate amounts of fresh outside air, however engineered, will challenge running costs as well as carbon status. This is wrong. Mechanical Heat Recovery Ventilation (MVHR) is a well established technology which can recycle 96% of the heat from the waste air in a house. It costs about the same to fit as a central heating system. Passive houses have very high Air Changes per Hour (ACH) compared to convent…

In much of the world for much of the year, it doesn't get below freezing for at least part of the day. The solution to the heating problem is simple then: simply don't. Open windows when it's above 50F / 10C (to give a healthy safety margin to the water pipes) and tell people to wear sweaters. Do this where it's possible and you'll offset the energy expenditure of heating in places were it actually earnestly gets col…

This article on Covid in Africa supports your theory / case.

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-science-heal...

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#112

Post by tboyd47 » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 1:19 AM UTC

323 wrote: post #31

nicoburns wrote: post #4

This agrees with my intuitive impression of everything I've read on Covid-19: that the primary transmission vector is through the being in unventilated or poorly ventilated enclosed spaces with an infected person for ~15 minutes or longer. I definitely feel like neither governmental policies or people's individual precautions and behaviours quite reflect that reality.

There have been documented cases of infections happening in seconds. Yes, longer exposure time increases infection probability, but the 15 min threshold is arbitrary, like the 2 meter social distancing. A bit like the "you can pick up food from the floor if it sat there for less than 5 seconds" meme.

By infection you mean people actually getting sick, or just dead virus DNA fragments detected in the nose with PCR?

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#113

Post by nradov » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 1:22 AM UTC

I'm fully in favor of more ventilation and improved indoor air quality, however they aren't really thinking things through long term. Since the virus is now endemic and can't be eradicated, we'll all be exposed occasionally regardless of whether the windows are open.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#114

Post by chiefalchemist » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 1:27 AM UTC

nradov wrote: post #113

I'm fully in favor of more ventilation and improved indoor air quality, however they aren't really thinking things through long term. Since the virus is now endemic and can't be eradicated, we'll all be exposed occasionally regardless of whether the windows are open. https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646

Fwiw, this is more op-ed than it is medical science. Nothing wrong with that per se. Just worth mentioning.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#115

Post by harry8 » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 1:28 AM UTC

nradov wrote: post #113

I'm fully in favor of more ventilation and improved indoor air quality, however they aren't really thinking things through long term. Since the virus is now endemic and can't be eradicated, we'll all be exposed occasionally regardless of whether the windows are open. https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646

We're all exposed to traffic accidents. So we take precautions with road infrastructure (eg traffic lights, zebra crossings etc).

Going from being exposed occasionally to being exposed less often than that is a good thing! Same as crossing a road being exposed to being hit by a vehicle. You don't have to "just accept it". Minimising risk given acceptable levels of cost of doing so is a good thing! Think of better ventilation like fitting pedistrian crossing lights in dangerous intersections. It's not going to eradicate all traffic, obviously.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#116

Post by nradov » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 1:30 AM UTC

taeric wrote: post #106

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The precautions required to guarantee zero exposure to an airborne virus are incredibly more substantial than most of us will ever be able to carry out in ordinary life (think biohazard labs). So yes, almost all of us are going to be exposed to SARS-COV-2 at some point. Slowdowns are doubleplus good because the biggest risk from the disease is related to its impact on public health care systems rather than serious il…

This angle feels like giving up on all of the covid deaths. And is somewhat at odds with all cause mortality being attributed to undiagnosed covid. I am open to the argument. Just feels to be begging a lot of other questions.

Preventing exposure is impossible over the long term. Fortunately the vaccines and other treatments can prevent most deaths.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#117

Post by jkhdigital » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 1:31 AM UTC

mlyle wrote: post #48

nicoburns wrote: post #4

This agrees with my intuitive impression of everything I've read on Covid-19: that the primary transmission vector is through the being in unventilated or poorly ventilated enclosed spaces with an infected person for ~15 minutes or longer. I definitely feel like neither governmental policies or people's individual precautions and behaviours quite reflect that reality.

I'm a teacher at a school. - We eat outside. - We have filters upgraded to MERV-13 and the fans run the entire school day. - We have windows and doors open on all classrooms, except for A) a few that don't open outside, or B) when it's rainy/windy to the point it's not possible. We have small, secondary HEPA filters that we run in those circumstances. (Often, we're blaring AC or heat into a room with all doors and wi…

So let me ask you: with such well-ventilated facilities, what is the marginal benefit of masking? And is this benefit worth the difficult-to-quantify but very real cost of students being unable to see the faces of their classmates?

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#118

Post by ceejayoz » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 1:32 AM UTC

belorn wrote: post #109

ceejayoz wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've had a lot more information come out since March 2020. The Bangladesh study is a particularly good one, demonstrating changes in disease prevalence even with less than half the population following masking recommendations: https://ncrc.jhsph.edu/research/the-impact-of-community-mask...

The bangladesh study showed that groups of people that are spending large portion of their days inside small huts will benefit from mask. One particular area was also mosques which has a large number of people coming and going, with people being near each other indoors. Mask makes great sense in specific contexts. Near vulnerable groups. In tight spaces and areas of low ventilation. In areas where a large number of p…

Sure, skip the mask at the beach. We've known outdoors is likely quite safe due to ventilation for a long time now.

The Bangladesh study is likely informative in busy grocery stores, retail, offices, schools, etc.; certainly more than just "inside small huts".

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#119

Post by nradov » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 1:33 AM UTC

harry8 wrote: post #115

nradov wrote: post #113

I'm fully in favor of more ventilation and improved indoor air quality, however they aren't really thinking things through long term. Since the virus is now endemic and can't be eradicated, we'll all be exposed occasionally regardless of whether the windows are open. https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646

We're all exposed to traffic accidents. So we take precautions with road infrastructure (eg traffic lights, zebra crossings etc). Going from being exposed occasionally to being exposed less often than that is a good thing! Same as crossing a road being exposed to being hit by a vehicle. You don't have to "just accept it". Minimising risk given acceptable levels of cost of doing so is a good thing! Think of better ven…

You're not thinking things through. You might be able to delay exposure for a while but you won't be able to prevent it forever.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#120

Post by chiefalchemist » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 1:35 AM UTC

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #20

bb123 wrote: post #13

Good ventilation is easy to do in the summer months, but it is winter in the northern hemisphere at the moment, and fuel prices are at all time highs. That means adequate ventilation is likely an expensive thing to achieve. Not to mention the environmental consequences of extra energy consumption, along with the plastic pollution from littered masks and lateral flow tests - they’re absolutely everywhere.

I'm sorry but this is unacceptable. We have shut down entire industries, made some people 2nd class citizens, and wrote blank checks to healthcare companies to solve this problem, and your concern is lost heat and the environment ? Any common sense government would have mandated open windows a long time ago, in most transportation systems and in federal buildings that could bear it, instead we wasted valuable time wi…

Common sense would have also dictacted we were more prepared - after a warning pandemic less than 10 yrs ago - we were not. The idea of a pandemic is so cliche that Hollywood has made multiple bad movies about one. But we weren't prepared (e.g., masks and PPE)?

Common sense (in the USA) would have dictated the extended care facilities were better protected early on, yet they were not.

There have been so many gaffes and bumbles that it consistently boils down to: it's either negligence or it's intentional. Neither is a good answer.