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Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

bmj.com

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Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#31

Post by 323 »

nicoburns wrote: post #4

This agrees with my intuitive impression of everything I've read on Covid-19: that the primary transmission vector is through the being in unventilated or poorly ventilated enclosed spaces with an infected person for ~15 minutes or longer. I definitely feel like neither governmental policies or people's individual precautions and behaviours quite reflect that reality.

There have been documented cases of infections happening in seconds.

Yes, longer exposure time increases infection probability, but the 15 min threshold is arbitrary, like the 2 meter social distancing.

A bit like the "you can pick up food from the floor if it sat there for less than 5 seconds" meme.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#32

Post by Madmallard »

chillwaves wrote: post #5
GhettoComputers wrote: post #2

They already solved this in NYC and Chicago with extra hot radiators by windows. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-05/the-curio... The “spent breath” of the occupants of poorly ventilated homes contributed to 40% of the deaths in the country, he claimed, and often said “man’s own breath is his greatest enemy.” He would spend decades promoting the cause, designing ventilation schemes for buildings, penni…

There is also a problem of comfortable humidity levels. If you just have open windows, it seems like you will have very dry air. There are modern solutions for air exchanges that do retain some of the heat and moisture while allowing for fresh air to ventilate the indoor space. https://www.explainthatstuff.com/heat-recovery-ventilation.h...

?

If your windows are open you will trend toward outside weather. If you’re in a dry climate then yeah it’ll be dryer but the reverse is also true. Outside air is far better than inside nearly everywhere in the world

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#33

Post by bigtex »

delecti wrote: post #25
nicoburns wrote: post #4

This agrees with my intuitive impression of everything I've read on Covid-19: that the primary transmission vector is through the being in unventilated or poorly ventilated enclosed spaces with an infected person for ~15 minutes or longer. I definitely feel like neither governmental policies or people's individual precautions and behaviours quite reflect that reality.

For better or worse, the medical community is usually hesitant to recommend things before studies have been done, and some "common sense" advice is difficult to test.

They supported lockdown of the healthy when no major western country had it as a tool in their pandemic plan and specifically recommended against it.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#34

Post by taeric »

nicoburns wrote: post #4

This agrees with my intuitive impression of everything I've read on Covid-19: that the primary transmission vector is through the being in unventilated or poorly ventilated enclosed spaces with an infected person for ~15 minutes or longer. I definitely feel like neither governmental policies or people's individual precautions and behaviours quite reflect that reality.

Annoyingly, my intuitive impression is that we are still far more ignorant than we'd care to admit. Being in a place where we all willingly wear masks to grocery shop, I get the impression we are far more cautious than most places. Still, I expect it is just a matter of time before we are exposed.

Why? I honestly don't know. It isn't lack of wanting to be safer. But it has gotten fatiguing to try to keep up with what makes us safer today. I remember the start when folks wiped down delivered groceries. Even isolated them for a few days. Nowadays, it seems masking is still the visible thing to do, but most seem pretty sure that it is the vaccination that will make a difference. Anything else is a slowdown, at best.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#35

Post by Der_Einzige »

_delirium wrote: post #21
anonporridge wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A potentially fantastic outcome from all this is that many more public and private spaces will be designed and retrofitted with very good ventilation. Beyond curbing the spread of natural airborne diseases, it also may decrease the attack vector in our societies for airborne bio-terrorism/warfare. And even beyond all that, we're becoming increasingly aware of how important clean air is for our overall health even wit…

I hope that's true. My experience so far has been pretty minor symbolic changes though. My employer sent emails about how they swapped their MERV filters for slightly better ones, and something hand-wavy about adjusting the external air percentage "when feasible" (with no numbers). I would be surprised if they do major retrofits, like a new heat exchange system allowing significantly higher percentage of outside air,…

Well, given that virus particles start to be meaningfully filtered only at a certain MERV level (14?), that upgrade may in fact have been more than a "minor symbolic" gesture.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#36

Post by koheripbal »

323 wrote: post #28

Ventilation is energetically expensive, and can be even impossible to retrofit (windows that don't open, ...) Purification however is energetically very cheap (just a fan blowing through a filter, maybe with a UV led, no temperature change). And has the bonus benefit of removing other dangerous particulate stuff from the air (dust, smoke, ...)

Most office buildings also do not have windows that open at all.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#37

Post by themitigating »

nicoburns wrote: post #4

This agrees with my intuitive impression of everything I've read on Covid-19: that the primary transmission vector is through the being in unventilated or poorly ventilated enclosed spaces with an infected person for ~15 minutes or longer. I definitely feel like neither governmental policies or people's individual precautions and behaviours quite reflect that reality.

Getting vaccinated, staying isolated if you are infected, and wearing a mask all work related to that

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#38

Post by inamberclad »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #20
bb123 wrote: post #13

Good ventilation is easy to do in the summer months, but it is winter in the northern hemisphere at the moment, and fuel prices are at all time highs. That means adequate ventilation is likely an expensive thing to achieve. Not to mention the environmental consequences of extra energy consumption, along with the plastic pollution from littered masks and lateral flow tests - they’re absolutely everywhere.

I'm sorry but this is unacceptable. We have shut down entire industries, made some people 2nd class citizens, and wrote blank checks to healthcare companies to solve this problem, and your concern is lost heat and the environment ? Any common sense government would have mandated open windows a long time ago, in most transportation systems and in federal buildings that could bear it, instead we wasted valuable time wi…

What's the end-game there? Opening windows doesn't eradicate the virus. Admittedly, we don't have a clear end-game as things stand, but what you suggest is just another mitigation factor, not a solution.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#39

Post by jonstewart »

WithinReason wrote: post #27
delecti wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For better or worse, the medical community is usually hesitant to recommend things before studies have been done, and some "common sense" advice is difficult to test.

Masks have been recommended heavily since the beginning without good evidence that they are effective. [0] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.30.20047217v... CONCLUSIONS Most included trials had poor design, reporting and sparse events. There was insufficient evidence to provide a recommendation on the use of facial barriers without other measures. We found insufficient evidence for a difference between…

This paper’s from March, 2020?

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#40

Post by ceejayoz »

WithinReason wrote: post #27
delecti wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For better or worse, the medical community is usually hesitant to recommend things before studies have been done, and some "common sense" advice is difficult to test.

Masks have been recommended heavily since the beginning without good evidence that they are effective. [0] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.30.20047217v... CONCLUSIONS Most included trials had poor design, reporting and sparse events. There was insufficient evidence to provide a recommendation on the use of facial barriers without other measures. We found insufficient evidence for a difference between…

We've had a lot more information come out since March 2020.

The Bangladesh study is a particularly good one, demonstrating changes in disease prevalence even with less than half the population following masking recommendations: https://ncrc.jhsph.edu/research/the-impact-of-community-mask...

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