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Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

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Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#121

Post by ceejayoz »

nradov wrote: post #119
harry8 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're all exposed to traffic accidents. So we take precautions with road infrastructure (eg traffic lights, zebra crossings etc). Going from being exposed occasionally to being exposed less often than that is a good thing! Same as crossing a road being exposed to being hit by a vehicle. You don't have to "just accept it". Minimising risk given acceptable levels of cost of doing so is a good thing! Think of better ven…

You're not thinking things through. You might be able to delay exposure for a while but you won't be able to prevent it forever.

You can limit the level and frequency of exposure via things like ventilation, and we're pretty sure viral load matters for how sick you get.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#122

Post by jl2718 »

antoniuschan99 wrote: post #104
nicoburns wrote: post #4

This agrees with my intuitive impression of everything I've read on Covid-19: that the primary transmission vector is through the being in unventilated or poorly ventilated enclosed spaces with an infected person for ~15 minutes or longer. I definitely feel like neither governmental policies or people's individual precautions and behaviours quite reflect that reality.

Viruses spread because of their hosts (us). In the past it was because of various sanitary conditions that allowed viruses to spread. Now that we have largely clean sanitation practices (showering, clean tap water, toilets), our practice of staying indoors and often in cramped places (elevators, transportation, work, school) is an easy way for a virus to chance on this way to spread.

Future people: “You mean they just dumped their used air and everybody else had to breathe it in?”

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#123

Post by chiefalchemist »

inamberclad wrote: post #38
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but this is unacceptable. We have shut down entire industries, made some people 2nd class citizens, and wrote blank checks to healthcare companies to solve this problem, and your concern is lost heat and the environment ? Any common sense government would have mandated open windows a long time ago, in most transportation systems and in federal buildings that could bear it, instead we wasted valuable time wi…

What's the end-game there? Opening windows doesn't eradicate the virus. Admittedly, we don't have a clear end-game as things stand, but what you suggest is just another mitigation factor, not a solution.

Why wouldn't we want to maximize mitigation? Especially something so simple and eady to do?

It seems we put ALL our "money" on a vax and that isn't panning out well. So now we have lost time, nudged behavior in conflicting directions, and so on. We just keep doubling down on a mindset that is clearly flawed.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#124

Post by jkhdigital »

geolqued wrote: post #69
calsy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are infections measured in seconds?

Up until about 2 months ago contact tracing in Australia was very effective. Contact tracing teams were able to trace who and where each person got infected. They were also notifying/testing/isolating first and sometimes secondary downstream contacts (up to 400 people in the case of one country town outbreak). One of the infections was traced to a department store and the interaction between the two people was caught…

It’s not like you can see the viral particles jumping over in that exact moment. I’m sure there is more to the story, but let’s not try and claim that this is incontrovertible scientific proof that infection happens “in seconds”.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#125

Post by jhugo »

ajmurmann wrote: post #103
nikolay wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't seen any proof either. But people keep poisoning their lungs with alcohol and other toxic vapors!

To be clear, I'm very much in favor of hand washing and have been using hand sanitizer whenever I come home since we'll before the pandemic. It helps with other infectious diseases, but I wonder about COVID

Washing your hands properly with soap and water is much more effective than hand sanitiser in typical use. Hand sanitiser is most useful when you don't have convenient access to soap and hot water. Since you're arriving home anyway, you might as well wash your hands properly — the skin on your hands will thank you for one less exposure to hand sanitiser, too.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#126

Post by jhugo »

newaccount74 wrote: post #41
323 wrote: post #28

Ventilation is energetically expensive, and can be even impossible to retrofit (windows that don't open, ...) Purification however is energetically very cheap (just a fan blowing through a filter, maybe with a UV led, no temperature change). And has the bonus benefit of removing other dangerous particulate stuff from the air (dust, smoke, ...)

Heat exchangers can recover a large fraction of the energy lost through ventilation. Modern systems can even recover humidity from the air leaving the building. Air purifiers are very loud and mostly effective at removing particulates. If you want to remove VOCs, formaldehyde and CO2 then ventilation is a lot more effective. A well designed ventilation system can be completely inaudible.

> Air purifiers are very loud and mostly effective at removing particulates. If you want to remove VOCs, formaldehyde and CO2 then ventilation is a lot more effective.

Modern air purifiers are basically silent in normal operation, and there are models that remove VOCs and formaldehyde. CO2 is still best removed with ventilation.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#127

Post by pstoll »

mlyle wrote: post #102
aspaceman wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really a newer thing? My ancient high school had 45-degree windows (for theft and suicide prevention I imagine). Why lock it all down? Cost?

It's a LEED rating thing. If you can rely upon windows entirely for ventilation and thermal control, that's great. Otherwise, windows that open leak more air when you don't want them to. They also let in more humid air, which in turn has a higher specific heat capacity and requires more energy to dry the air later. Their usage tends to be uneven, so you often have open windows while AC is also running elsewhere or in…

We have a local school being built. This was the argument for no operable windows.

Except … a pandemic! We are optimizing for the wrong thing IMO at the expense of simple practical, human driven comfort. Same reason we don’t have windows on the local trains anymore.

Practically for people in classrooms at random times, being able to open a window should be an option. Only central control of when the ventilation / heat is on just fails in so many situations.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#128

Post by c0nducktr »

jkhdigital wrote: post #117
mlyle wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a teacher at a school. - We eat outside. - We have filters upgraded to MERV-13 and the fans run the entire school day. - We have windows and doors open on all classrooms, except for A) a few that don't open outside, or B) when it's rainy/windy to the point it's not possible. We have small, secondary HEPA filters that we run in those circumstances. (Often, we're blaring AC or heat into a room with all doors and wi…

So let me ask you: with such well-ventilated facilities, what is the marginal benefit of masking? And is this benefit worth the difficult-to-quantify but very real cost of students being unable to see the faces of their classmates?

> And is this benefit worth the difficult-to-quantify but very real cost of students being unable to see the faces of their classmates?

I would figure the first thing needed to answer that question is defining the "difficult-to-quantify" cost, right?

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#129

Post by jhugo »

koheripbal wrote: post #36
323 wrote: post #28

Ventilation is energetically expensive, and can be even impossible to retrofit (windows that don't open, ...) Purification however is energetically very cheap (just a fan blowing through a filter, maybe with a UV led, no temperature change). And has the bonus benefit of removing other dangerous particulate stuff from the air (dust, smoke, ...)

Most office buildings also do not have windows that open at all.

These office buildings usually have automated ventilation which if specced properly can provide equivalent or more air exchanges per hour than open windows. As a bonus, automated ventilation can include a heat exchanger, while an open window can't.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#130

Post by solitus »

Eelongate wrote: post #107
inamberclad wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the end-game there? Opening windows doesn't eradicate the virus. Admittedly, we don't have a clear end-game as things stand, but what you suggest is just another mitigation factor, not a solution.

The end game is that we get to all enjoy some fresh air, isn't that enough? I've been doing this for years, long before any covid.

Where do you live?
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