Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#471

Post by montblanc » Fri, Nov 26, 2021, 7:03 AM UTC

Sporktacular wrote: post #463

montblanc wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care about NSO at all, they can shut down tomorrow for all I care. I'm just saying if the alternative is between something like the Islamic Revolution of Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood type movements - to something like the military regime Egypt has now or whatever the Saudis came up with, I take the latter. What you said about resistance being impossible - it won't get any better under a radical Islamic rul…

They don't just use sales to oppose the Muslim Brotherhood! They are bombing innocent Yemenis who have ZERO connection to Iran. They backed Salafis, like Al-Qaeda for decades (forgotten about those guys?) They use them to jail journalists for reporting on corruption, women rights activists for driving. People just trying to make their countries a bit better. You say "if the alternative is between...", and then procee…

> They are bombing innocent Yemenis who have ZERO connection to Iran

The Houthis are an extremely well armed group supported by Iran, please read about the topic you are uninformed. I am not saying what's going on there isn't tragic but it's far from "good guys vs bad guys". Iran had a role in what happened in Yemen as it had a role in what happened in Syria. Saudi Arabia is as far from liberalism as Iran, I acknowledge that. But they have much less of a will to export "the revolution" to other places - unlike Iran. They kinda mind their own business most of the time.

> You're uncritically buying the line that Iran or the Muslim Brotherhood are the worst (which could be argued) but the other less so, because they are on "our side".

You are being uncritical as well. If you have any info that suggests otherwise you can share it, otherwise don't just contradict me and call me uncritical.

> If you prioritise human rights, that lives on both sides are equally valuable

I prioritise human rights within reason. Since the Arab Spring we've seen the whole area can in fact get much worse for humans very quickly. "Democratizing" a place like Egypt probably means bringing a hostile (to the West and to freedom in general) Islamic Caliphate of some sort, which I don't like.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#472

Post by Sporktacular » Sat, Nov 27, 2021, 2:05 PM UTC

montblanc wrote: post #471

Sporktacular wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't just use sales to oppose the Muslim Brotherhood! They are bombing innocent Yemenis who have ZERO connection to Iran. They backed Salafis, like Al-Qaeda for decades (forgotten about those guys?) They use them to jail journalists for reporting on corruption, women rights activists for driving. People just trying to make their countries a bit better. You say "if the alternative is between...", and then procee…

> They are bombing innocent Yemenis who have ZERO connection to Iran The Houthis are an extremely well armed group supported by Iran, please read about the topic you are uninformed. I am not saying what's going on there isn't tragic but it's far from "good guys vs bad guys". Iran had a role in what happened in Yemen as it had a role in what happened in Syria. Saudi Arabia is as far from liberalism as Iran, I acknowle…

Yeah yeah, I read the news too. I'm not going to go into my personal experience, but from my time there knowing political actors, I followed the Houthi rebellion and southern secession movement, and the Iran connection very closely. The link had always been tenuous and was cynically and successfully played up by Saleh to gather billions in Saudi and US financial and military aid, before he switched sides and was killed before he could switch back. Until that point the evidence pointed to the Houthis purchasing weapons from a corrupt Yemeni military. Saleh was Zaydi, a fact conveniently overlooked by the media in an attempt to lazily drive a Shia vs. Sunni narrative that people ate up bought. There is only evidence of Iran getting involved after the Houthis took Sana'a, where as KSA had been destabilising the Houthi border region, funding Salafists and building extremist madrassas for decades before then. That's not even in dispute.

"But (KSA) have much less of a will to export "the revolution" to other places - unlike Iran. They kinda mind their own business most of the time." This is laughably ill informed. They've built over 10,000 new Hanbali, Salafist Wahabi madrassas in Pakistan over the past 50 years. Sent extremist imams everywhere from the Philippines, Indonesia, Mali, Bosnia, UK, the Netherlands. Backing the Janjaweed and ISIS affiliated groups around the world. You don't like an Islamic Caliphate? ISIS's principle enemy was not the US, not Israel but Iran which fought them with existential zeal in Iraq. Ignore the posturing, check the last time Iran actually invaded a country. Educate yourself. Stop just repeating the news.

Soo just how is the statement "They are bombing innocent Yemenis who have ZERO connection to Iran" contradicted by anything you've added? It's just a fact, as is the fact that KSA also bomb militants, using them and Iran as the pretext to do whatever they want, including using economic warfare against one of the poorest, hungriest populations in the world.

It's the standard 'but they're killing the bad guys' guilt-by-association, collective punishment line you seem strangely prepared to toe as a justification for brushing off the well documented bombing of innocent civilians. That mindset is probably the single biggest perpetuator of human rights violations on all sides in the Middle East. The casual cruelty of that and the ignorance are bad enough, but to then actively say "As long as it is what it is selling stuff to Saudi Arabia doesn't sound super terrible.", brushing off criticism of both the KSA and those making a buck off the situation, is abhorrent.

You'll happily buy the old, and false, pick-your-poison, brutal dictator vs. extremist Islamism dichotomy that lets you overlook human rights by "our sons of bitches", even while knowing how obviously bad that has worked out until today. But sure, you're "prioritising it within reason". Please. That's just the easy way out.

I don't want to be harsh but you don't seem to be well informed, reasoned or particularly concerned with ethical choices on this issue. Don't think I have much more to add.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#473

Post by sneak » Sat, Nov 27, 2021, 3:06 PM UTC

throw10920 wrote: post #464

sneak wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, publishing and free expression (especially of factually accurate information) is extremely democratic. It's really surprising to see people pushing back lately against free speech and a free press. If you find the truth to be malicious, perhaps it's reality you have the issue with, not the speaker.

> No, publishing and free expression (especially of factually accurate information) is extremely democratic. If I publish someone's name, address, and personal routine to am online forum and ask someone to assassinate them, is that "democratic"? It's "factually accurate information", right? No, obviously not. People's personal information is off-limits. Unless, you think that it's not - in which case it's ok for larg…

It's pretty clear that you don't know what doxxing means, and have constructed a strawman ("publish someone's name, address, and personal routine") which is completely unrelated to my suggested course of action.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#474

Post by LogonType10 » Sat, Nov 27, 2021, 10:19 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #342

LogonType10 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This sounds like no one should be a security researcher for they risk paying companies to implement the security the company should have implemented anyway. No, read again, this only refers to damages from unlawful activity. "White hat hackers" need not fear.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. The difference between white hat and black hat is usually only determined once the destination of the results of the activity is known. Plenty of bug bounty programs appear to be one element in the marketplace for valuing an exploit. If the bounty isn't high enough your 'white hat' may well change the color of their hat.

So... People who aren't criminals... Might become criminals... After committing a crime... I guess?

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#475

Post by JohnFen » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 5:06 PM UTC

notyourday wrote: post #331

JohnFen wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Life in 2021 is very difficult without a smartphone. It's actually not, at least in the US. Tons of people do it.

US population for 2020 is 329.5 million. 18 percent of US population fell between 0-14 years old in 2019. US has over 290 million smatphones in 2020. We can confidently presume anyone who works for a tech company such as NSO does not live like a Luddite.

I know a dozen or so people who don't have smartphones. They are also work in the tech sector and are the exact opposite of being luddites.

But the comment I was responding to was asserting that going without a smartphone is difficult. It most certainly is not. It's less convenient, but not difficult.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#476

Post by JohnFen » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

tentacleuno wrote: post #400

jtsiskin wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on context, and the phrase “expensive”, I assume they mean they want prosecution/legal action against the individual engineers and management. Not threatening

Wouldn't it be better to target the one outfit (NSO), and not its workers? Then again, I suppose the workers would setup another underground business to do the same thing, with the same exploits, and the same people. What is the solution for this?

If you work for a company that is engaging in bad behavior, the mud is on you as well.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#477

Post by notyourday » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 4:06 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #475

notyourday wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US population for 2020 is 329.5 million. 18 percent of US population fell between 0-14 years old in 2019. US has over 290 million smatphones in 2020. We can confidently presume anyone who works for a tech company such as NSO does not live like a Luddite.

I know a dozen or so people who don't have smartphones. They are also work in the tech sector and are the exact opposite of being luddites. But the comment I was responding to was asserting that going without a smartphone is difficult. It most certainly is not. It's less convenient, but not difficult.

> But the comment I was responding to was asserting that going without a smartphone is difficult. It most certainly is not. It's less convenient, but not difficult.

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