Live data from Hacker News

Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

apple.com

451–460 of 477 posts

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#451
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refuse to hire them, like I do for Facebook, Microsoft, and Raytheon/Booz/etc staff. Blog about their names and the work they do and their employer, so anyone searching for them on Google knows that they are military-industrial complex scumbags.

> Blog about their names and the work they do This is, uh, rather malicious, and definitely undemocratic. Let's not have any of that, please.

Yeah, cos it's the BLOGGERS who are undemocratic.

Amazingly poor choice of words/priorities.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#452
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refuse to hire them, like I do for Facebook, Microsoft, and Raytheon/Booz/etc staff. Blog about their names and the work they do and their employer, so anyone searching for them on Google knows that they are military-industrial complex scumbags.

Wait what? You don't hire people from Microsoft? Let's say I get Facebook (I don't really) but what's wrong with Microsoft? How about people who eat meat? Or vote for the other party - the one you don't like? Are you trying to hire people who are morally compatible with you on every single question? That's gonna be rough hiring. Even the weapons industry is a tough one. The knee jerk reaction says it's immoral to wor…

Don't conflate NSO with a disciplined military.

If you're looking for an analog try Xe/Blackwater/Academi/whatever it's now called.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the NSO Group itself is an Israeli firm, founded by ex-Israeli intelligence, and whose products are subject to Israeli national export controls. All this means is that the NSO Group is an Israeli company staffed by Israeli citizens. I don't know what export controls have to do with anything since those apply categories of products, regardless of whether or not you have business with the Israeli government.

It's a little disingenuous to suggest that an intelligence firm founded by state intelligence officers is just another "Israeli company staffed by Israeli citizens", as though it were a street-corner restaurant. Other threads here have mentioned the close ties between that company and the government. Is this really controversial? Who else would a hardcore surveillance company's primary customers be..? Cheating spouse…

It's a little disingenuous to suggest that an intelligence firm founded by state intelligence officers is just another "Israeli company staffed by Israeli citizens", as though it were a street-corner restaurant. Other threads here have mentioned the close ties between that company and the government.

I have no problem believing that Israel "sponsors" them, but your justifications are baseless. Ex-intelligence officers are not government officials, they are civilians. And government contracts don't imply "sponsorship" in the usual sense, e.g. a landscaping company would not be said to be "state-sponsored" just because they are contracted to work around a government property.

You, and Apple, have to demonstrate how Israel materially supports the NSO Group outside of usual business practices.

Export controls means, one, that the product they're selling is likely a concern of national security, unlike, say, your average lockpick kit or GPS tracker.

GPS devices of almost any kind are subject to ITAR/EAR in the USA. It is extremely easy to run afoul of weapons export controls and there is quite a large market for ITAR-free products. It means extraordinarily little if a product is subject to these type of controls.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#454
post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US military runs on Microsoft. The slides that Snowden leaked were PowerPoints.

It also runs on Intel and probably gets some supplies from Europe. It's pretty insane to boycott any company that indirectly works with the U.S military.

Microsoft doesn't work indirectly. Neither does Amazon.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little disingenuous to suggest that an intelligence firm founded by state intelligence officers is just another "Israeli company staffed by Israeli citizens", as though it were a street-corner restaurant. Other threads here have mentioned the close ties between that company and the government. Is this really controversial? Who else would a hardcore surveillance company's primary customers be..? Cheating spouse…

It's a little disingenuous to suggest that an intelligence firm founded by state intelligence officers is just another "Israeli company staffed by Israeli citizens", as though it were a street-corner restaurant. Other threads here have mentioned the close ties between that company and the government. I have no problem believing that Israel "sponsors" them, but your justifications are baseless. Ex-intelligence officer…

> I have no problem believing that Israel "sponsors" them, but your justifications are baseless. Ex-intelligence officers are not government officials, they are civilians. And government contracts don't imply "sponsorship" in the usual sense, e.g. a landscaping company would not be said to be "state-sponsored" just because they are contracted to work around a government property.

I am no longer sure what we're arguing about. Is it the meaning of the word "sponsor"? That's not my word choice, that was just what the OP used and I mirrored it.

I think the bigger point is that states (no matter WHICH state) are funding private companies to surveil citizens in a way that genuinely threatens what few civil rights they have left.

Secondarily, are we arguing about the degree of connection between NSO, the company, and the State of Israel? If so, I used "sponsorship" in the revolving door sense, as in intimate relationships between the staff and government officials, not entirely unlike the US and Blackwater/Xe/Academi or Halliburton or Diebold/Premier. The discomfort there is not just in the amount of dollars exchanged, but in the offloading of legal and criminal responsibility to what is essentially a front company used to do the dirty work of the state. Outsourced oppression.

> GPS devices of almost any kind are subject to ITAR/EAR in the USA. It is extremely easy to run afoul of weapons export controls and there is quite a large market for ITAR-free products. It means extraordinarily little if a product is subject to these type of controls.

OK, without looking this up, I'll take your word for it and I stand corrected. Sorry for the mistake about GPS. But that's really a technicality. Surveillance tech of this sort IS a weapon, capable of suppressing not just external enemies but internal citizens, especially if it falls into the hands of nations participating in "Five Eyes"-style surveillance exchanges of each other's citizens. And this in particular is a lot more dangerous than a GPS receiver. And unlike GPS, it has no real "benevolent" civilian purpose. Its primary (only?) customers are oppressive states.

Sorry if this wasn't clear -- I thought it was implied -- but the worry behind the state-private connection here is that this company is getting the kind of resources (and thus effectiveness) that only states can provide, thus making it a dangerous tool. Another implied fear is that the NSO group can also get special extrajudicial treatment because of their usefulness and close connections to the Israeli state, and thus risk breaking checks and balances in a way that a landscaping company would simply not.

I feel like we're running circles around semantics here. Am I fundamentally misunderstanding your argument?

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#456
post #282
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the problems here? > Suppose that Small Co sells the assets of a business unit to Big Co. Do you now have a contract with Small Co. or Big Co.? Small Co. no longer has the rights to the software That's right, that's what they sold. > Big Co. may not agree to the terms of the old license. Then I guess maybe they shouldn't have bought it. > Suppose someone dies and their assets go to their heirs. Do you now ha…

So if I sell you a magic rock under the contract that so long as you are in possession of said rock I have legal authority to monitor your household to make sure you don’t misuse the rock for evil, and you die and your heir comes in possession of the rock, I now have a contract with your heir? I can go set up cameras in their house and invade their privacy just because you wanted a magic rock? That doesn't seem right…

It sounds like that contract is a liability. Not a lawyer, but I don't think that liabilities are inherited the same way. Most likely if you wanted to do this, you would structure it as a rental agreement and get the rock back.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just sucks for everyone else Not necessarily. I assume you mean it fortifies despot regimes in the Middle East right? I no longer think at this time there is any sane alternative.

Because that's worked out so well until now. So may as well make a little cash on the side of it, eh? Do you think the path to end tyranny was so smooth in developed countries? Think back through Western revolutionary history and now immediately forget the name of every leader the moment you think of them - because that's what's happening, right now, in these countries at this exact stage of their political developme…

I don't care about NSO at all, they can shut down tomorrow for all I care. I'm just saying if the alternative is between something like the Islamic Revolution of Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood type movements - to something like the military regime Egypt has now or whatever the Saudis came up with, I take the latter. What you said about resistance being impossible - it won't get any better under a radical Islamic rule as we are seeing in Iran. All I am saying it can get way worse. it CAN become North Korea. What we have now in several areas there may be the best we can get for now. And a big part of how I feel about this is about self survival - the Iranian regime hates the West (and especially the U.S but not only) in very deep ways that Saudi Arabia/UAE/Egypt/etc do not. That's how it is. As long as it is what it is selling stuff to Saudi Arabia doesn't sound super terrible.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every Israeli citizen, except religious extremists, serves in the IDF or equivalent; if you look useful to the intelligence apparatus, that's where you'll end up. You literally cannot find an Israeli company that isn't founded, run, and staffed by people with military or intelligence links, unless you're only dealing with religious extremists.

A bit more nuanced; Israeli Arab Muslims (besides Bedouins) and Arab Christians don't go to the army besides some very small number of volunteers. Bedouins are a special case but I think going to the army isn't as prevalent with them as it used to be. Druze all go to the army but they are not Muslim and don't see themselves as connected to the Palestinians.

Valid point - I was primarily talking to Israeli Jewish citizens from that perspective.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every Israeli citizen, except religious extremists, serves in the IDF or equivalent; if you look useful to the intelligence apparatus, that's where you'll end up. You literally cannot find an Israeli company that isn't founded, run, and staffed by people with military or intelligence links, unless you're only dealing with religious extremists.

Not sure that makes it any better.

It makes it a nothingburger. Your Israeli barista has past involvement with the security forces. In and of itself it's basically a meaningless statement.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#460
post #7

It is great to see this happen. It's also fascinating that the crux of the Apple's case against NSO hinges on NSO engineers that accepted iCloud's terms and conditions. From related NYT article: > The sample of Pegasus gave Apple a forensic understanding of how Pegasus worked. The company found that NSO’s engineers had created more than 100 fake Apple IDs to carry out their attacks. In the process of creating those a…

Is it great? The lawsuit is Apple trying to enforce the iCloud EULA to stop reverse engineering. While NSO Group created hacking tools, and then did some questionable things with them, do we really want those inane licenses no one reads, and everyone scrolls down to hit [agree]; do we really want them to legally binding? Put another way, if it was someone HN liked , would we still say this is actually good? Because c…

They are legally binding if the parties agree, but there's a catch: a checkbox is repudiable. You can reject EULA, then you will be judged for unlicensed usage of the service.
Post reply on HN