Live data from Hacker News

Why Carbon Taxes Work

timharford.com

71–80 of 107 posts

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#71
I’ve never been more astounded than when in the company of absolute geniuses in Silicon Valley, watching them discuss the economics of a carbon tax without having once encountered a real world carbon tax credit trade or having seen the dishonesty of the entire system.

Tl;dr: It isn’t a system to “inform one of the behavior one needs to change most urgently” as the author puts it. It’s a transfer of wealth from the economies that impose it to the economies that find a way to leverage the arbitrage.

Going green doesn’t need to be a punitive process, Infact, all indications from our efforts over the past decade indicate that punitive measures are far from perfect. The incentive for solar and wind energy, for example, has saddled places like Germany and California with systems that dont scale with growing demand, leading to temporary large burns of dirty coal or arguably worse, cutting off power to whole cities for hours.

Intelligent societies solve problems through innovation. A billion dollars to five or so independent contractors to set up efficient modular nuclear reactors with some entity like the Army Corps of Engineers or experts from the energy department assisting with oversight and safety would completely change the game over night.

You can still fly to meet your family and cities can run public infrastructure around the clock carbon free for any demand load we can imagine for the next century.

The issue is precisely the idiots who come up with the ideas of a carbon tax. Bureaucrats. Won’t be around by the time the idea fails so the blame falls to someone else.

The legal and regulatory barriers holding nuclear back in the US right now is one of the gravest mistakes of the coming century.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#72
post #55
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealth is numbers on a page. Chop fossil fuel use in half (picking a random ratio) and there physically isn't a way for everyone to maintain their lifestyle. They have to travel less, receive less goods and spend less on heating and cooling. There may not be a way to make that burden fall on the rich. I'm not sure what percentage of a society's energy is spent on maintaining the lifestyles of the wealthy but it would…

> I'm not sure what percentage of a society's energy is spent on maintaining the lifestyles of the wealthy but it wouldn't be weird if it is low in absolute terms. I think this is patently false; but even more generally, wealthier people and “developed” countries are the biggest polluters. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/21/worlds-r...

The global 1% are, by definition, around 80 million people (more than the population of most countries). As the article points out, earning more than around $100,000. They aren't billionaires.

I suppose they might be millionaires since around 9% of the US are millionaires [0]. That isn't a very exclusive club these days. A tax that knocks the lifestyle of that many people down to something like what an individual with a [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_the_numbe...

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#73

Of course they work. Fuels have historically been taxed quite highly in some countries. EVs are doing well in those countries and these countries tend to be a bit ahead of the curve in terms of adoption. Financial incentives help so they are a useful tool. One caveat here is that governments also hand out subsidies and a much more effective way to penalize carbon emissions is simply to stop subsidizing it and then ad…

Energy runs the world. It isn’t as one dimensional as you paint it.

Governments don’t simply subsidize burning coal. . . They do so as a means to meet the growing demand of their people for electricity.

India for example, has one of the most expensive fuels sold in the world thanks to immense taxation. Even with one of the lower per capital incomes in the world, they are a massive energy market because ENERGY IS NEEDED FOR SUSTENANCE.

We need to realize that what sounds like a great idea on paper to minimize one dimension is actually counter productive when we factor in many more.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#74
post #61
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another option: get work nearby. Some jobs will also get pay raises if there is demand for them, but people can't afford to take them. Working remote doesn't work just for IT, and I didn't claim everything works for everybody. And incrementally increased taxation will allow for planning. Poor people have a low enough foot print to profit with a dividend anyways. The real problem with carbon taxing is that it must be…

I’ve lived in the USA, EU, and Asia. Very very rarely can you get a job near your housing (suburbs) - residential vs commercial areas are intentionally zoned against this. Getting housing near your work (city center) is much easier, due to mixed zoning, but obviously way more expensive. > profit with a dividend anyways See, the thing is, there are no carbon dividends yet. We do have lots of carbon-like taxes (in the…

So you have found things to be changed (back). Same goes for shops having centralized a lot especially in the US at it seems, while local shops are much more bicycle or even foot friendly.

Generally, there is no silver bullet, but there are a lot of possible solutions as you can see. And I am sure I didn't include most of them

> See, the thing is, there are no carbon dividends yet. We do have lots of carbon-like taxes (in the EU and elsewhere) though. So, there’s only loss, no gain.

Well, what not is ...

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#75
post #68
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most renters still have the option to turn down the thermostat though I can’t tell if this is serious? You’re saying that the gov policy’s effect should be the common man freezing during winter? I don’t know anyone who runs their heating for shits and giggles. > Admittedly, there are some rentals with bills included I’ve seen very few (<10%) of rentals that come with utilities included. It wouldn’t make sense eithe…

> I don’t know anyone who runs their heating for shits and giggles. Heating isn't a binary thing - we want people to minimise their use of gas within reason. Most people I know could turn their heating down a couple of degrees and put on a warmer jumper, some thermal underwear, or sit with a hot water bottle whilst at their desk if working from home. I've managed to save >30% of my households gas usage in this way. Y…

> I've managed to save >30% of my households gas usage in this way.

That’s good for you! I fully support educating families that are indeed superfluously running heating.

However, I would also like the exorbitant taxes to go towards actually fixing insulation/heating, or investigating/penalising landlords that don’t fix the overpriced rentals they provide.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#76
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand if you can't get the common man out of their polluting activities then you aren't going to solve the problem.

> common man out of their polluting activities The common man is definitely less polluting than the average HNer - HN represents the upper % of the upper middle class. So really, the way you frame your reply makes me think you haven’t thought through the impact on your own polluting lifestyle.

>The common man is definitely less polluting than the average HNer - HN represents the upper % of the upper middle class.

The common man in the developed world is still part of the problem.

>So really, the way you frame your reply makes me think you haven’t thought through the impact on your own polluting lifestyle.

You are jumping to an incorrect conclusion there. I've been thinking about it for decades which is why I don't fly nor own a car. My spending (hence consumption) is around the poverty line for my country.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#77
Carbon taxes are a terrible idea. The reason the capital markets can't solve climate change is because it's not a real pain point that people care about (even though they claim to), so taxing people doesn't solve the underlying issue.

The simple solution is make consuming products that are bad for the environment really annoying/painful to the point where not buying them is the best option. Nothing else will do more good for the environment.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#78
post #69
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you also need to tax the uncertainty...

And of course no one will exaggerate this "uncertainty" as a cover for protectionism. /s

Perfect can't be the enemy of good. We are on a clock. Something has to be done.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#79
post #74
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve lived in the USA, EU, and Asia. Very very rarely can you get a job near your housing (suburbs) - residential vs commercial areas are intentionally zoned against this. Getting housing near your work (city center) is much easier, due to mixed zoning, but obviously way more expensive. > profit with a dividend anyways See, the thing is, there are no carbon dividends yet. We do have lots of carbon-like taxes (in the…

So you have found things to be changed (back). Same goes for shops having centralized a lot especially in the US at it seems, while local shops are much more bicycle or even foot friendly. Generally, there is no silver bullet, but there are a lot of possible solutions as you can see. And I am sure I didn't include most of them > See, the thing is, there are no carbon dividends yet. We do have lots of carbon-like taxe…

> Generally, there is no silver bullet

I’m not ascribing to a perfection mindset. Just pointing out the ridiculousness of the elites telling others how to live their lives, while simultaneously finding ways to further suppress them.

“We could have an ideal world, if you just stopped doing everything that enables your survival. Me? I just make/support the rules - despite them not materially affecting me.”

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#80
post #42

1) Tax carbon at the source - yes, that means every oil well and coal mine pays a whopping great tax before any fossil energy leaves the front gate. Prices will adjust all the way down the supply chain 2) Use this huge income source as global helicopter money, the dividend every person in the world gets from allowing other people to destroy their global shared ecosystem 3) Create various green energy projects into wh…

Sounds like a way to end up with women forced into having children they do not want.

Nah, you don't get your dividend until you are 16.
Post reply on HN