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Why Carbon Taxes Work

timharford.com

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Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#41

Post by yunohn »

ajuc wrote: post #27
yunohn wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your viewpoint, but if you tax the common man such that they are unable to travel to work in the only car they can afford - the world will stop functioning. I often wonder why the elites don’t understand what their mistreatment of the proletariat will lead to…

If you don't stop global warming - it's not going to be pretty either. And taxing rich, while a good idea - won't solve the problem, because there's so few of them that it won't matter, nevermind how exuberant they CO2 emissions are. So basically choose your poison or hope for magic tech to appear soon.

> because there's so few of them that it won't matter

What do you mean?? Literally, you could redistribute billionaire/millionaire wealth and it would be more useful than taxing the average person tens/hundreds of euros more, when they can barely afford to survive.

In fact, ongoing taxation that reduces the loopholes that elites get away with, would be even more beneficial.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#42

Post by flooow »

1) Tax carbon at the source - yes, that means every oil well and coal mine pays a whopping great tax before any fossil energy leaves the front gate. Prices will adjust all the way down the supply chain

2) Use this huge income source as global helicopter money, the dividend every person in the world gets from allowing other people to destroy their global shared ecosystem

3) Create various green energy projects into which citizens can invest their dividend

4) Planet does not become unliveable mad-max hell within our lifetimes?

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#43

Post by pydry »

elurg wrote: post #15
schnitzelstoat wrote: post #5

I agree that externalities should be priced in - but I wonder if in practice Governments would end up footing the bill via subsidies. For example, look at what happened in France with the fuel tax rise which lead to the “gilets jaunes” protests. If people need to get to work and heat their homes etc. then putting a tax on all of that will hit them hard while the rich will be relatively unaffected and can continue pol…

Is it even possible to make a CO2 tax that is not regressive? The purpose of a CO2 tax is reduce emissions and a lot of emissions are not caused by luxury products and services but simple stuff like growing food or driving to work. Increasing the price of fuel to the point where people switch to biking to work would be very successful from a climate standpoint but extremely unpopular.

Superyacht fuel efficiency is measured in gallons per mile.

Private jets use ridiculous amounts of fuel.

The middle class will drive while the poor take the bus.

It's not as regressive as you'd think.

This can also be offset with tax rebates for those on lower incomes.

Politically the problem is that the wealthy will use every lobbying, legal and propaganda tool to shift the burden off their backs.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#44

Post by kranke155 »

vasco wrote: post #4
kranke155 wrote: post #3

Carbon Taxes work because the market can't solve a problem it doesn't have a price for. Knowing the word "externality" is all you need to know. In the Adam Smith/Ayn Rand fantasy of money and the invisible hand, markets are a form of Artificial Intelligence. The fantasy is this AI can run the markets better than any centralized authority. Even if we assume that's true right now the AI has no price for carbon, can't t…

So who do you propose to be the centralized authority?

I never suggested anything of the sort.

I would think a reading of history - ie the book "How Asia Works" has a lot of material on this - shows that there is a hybrid model where intervention of the govt is needed to "steer" the direction of things in order to ensure sustainable income and economic growth. I highly recommend reading that book for an alternative history on how Germany, Korea, Japan and China have succeeded while the West has mostly stagnated.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#45

Post by gefhfff »

yunohn wrote: post #22
roenxi wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, look at what happened in France with the fuel tax rise which lead to the “gilets jaunes” protests. I think people actually underestimate the effect of a carbon tax. The tax has to be extreme enough that it changes behaviour in the real wold, and something like 70-80% of energy comes from fossil fuels. If people aren't near to rioting because their lifestyle is being forced to change then the tax isn't…

I understand your viewpoint, but if you tax the common man such that they are unable to travel to work in the only car they can afford - the world will stop functioning. I often wonder why the elites don’t understand what their mistreatment of the proletariat will lead to…

Or they'll just move closer to work, or will implement Home Office, or will demand public transport (which can be combined with bicycles), or will drive electric (car, ebike, electric scooter/motor cycles) or will drive as groups instead of individuals, or a dividend will implemented making this scenario unlikely in the first place while still enabling carbon taxes.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#46

Post by pydry »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #35
wcoenen wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why mechanisms like carbon tariffs on imports are being designed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_Border_Adjustment_Mecha...

Do you think the natural game theoretic result might be "carbon havens"? Areas that have the worst carbon enforcement / corruption (so issuing certificates to avoid tariffs etc without real action) would be more competitive than areas with effective enforcement so they will attract the most manufacturing. I don't think importing from countries without a carbon price will be a problem (border taxes seem like they can…

If high levels of fraud are detected other countries can just slap high "emergency" tarriffs until the country fixes the problem. This would most certainly disincentivize lax enforcement.

The problem has always been lack of a will, not a way.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#47

Post by gefhfff »

ajuc wrote: post #27
yunohn wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your viewpoint, but if you tax the common man such that they are unable to travel to work in the only car they can afford - the world will stop functioning. I often wonder why the elites don’t understand what their mistreatment of the proletariat will lead to…

If you don't stop global warming - it's not going to be pretty either. And taxing rich, while a good idea - won't solve the problem, because there's so few of them that it won't matter, nevermind how exuberant they CO2 emissions are. So basically choose your poison or hope for magic tech to appear soon.

1% (richest) = 15% emissions, so much for that

But carbon tax (ideally with a dividend) catches this anyways

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#48

Post by kranke155 »

nabla9 wrote: post #33
kranke155 wrote: post #3

Carbon Taxes work because the market can't solve a problem it doesn't have a price for. Knowing the word "externality" is all you need to know. In the Adam Smith/Ayn Rand fantasy of money and the invisible hand, markets are a form of Artificial Intelligence. The fantasy is this AI can run the markets better than any centralized authority. Even if we assume that's true right now the AI has no price for carbon, can't t…

> In the Adam Smith/Ayn Rand fantasy of money and the invisible hand, markets are a form of Artificial Intelligence. Don't equate Adam Smith and Ayn Rand. Adam Smith was not a free market fundamentalist. Adam Smith has unnecessarily bad reputation because he is quoted very selectively. Adam Smith was aware of negative and positive externalities.

True. I think the current usage is sort of a blend of the two though, to justify market maximalism.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#49

Post by lovemenot »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #35
wcoenen wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why mechanisms like carbon tariffs on imports are being designed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_Border_Adjustment_Mecha...

Do you think the natural game theoretic result might be "carbon havens"? Areas that have the worst carbon enforcement / corruption (so issuing certificates to avoid tariffs etc without real action) would be more competitive than areas with effective enforcement so they will attract the most manufacturing. I don't think importing from countries without a carbon price will be a problem (border taxes seem like they can…

Perhaps this can work as strategic arms limitation treaties: trust but verify.

Satellite monitoring is almost at the point where an individual country may be held accountable for emissions from their territory.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#50

Post by surrehuet »

yunohn wrote: post #10
schnitzelstoat wrote: post #5

I agree that externalities should be priced in - but I wonder if in practice Governments would end up footing the bill via subsidies. For example, look at what happened in France with the fuel tax rise which lead to the “gilets jaunes” protests. If people need to get to work and heat their homes etc. then putting a tax on all of that will hit them hard while the rich will be relatively unaffected and can continue pol…

> If people need to get to work and heat their homes etc. then putting a tax on all of that will hit them hard while the rich will be relatively unaffected and can continue polluting. So much this. Here in NL, my heating bill is 70% tax and 30% gas charges (not exaggerating). The government claims to do this to encourage installation of better insulation and other energy saving measures - however, as a renter (like t…

If your gas bill is increased then your ability to spend money on rent decreases. Wouldn't this in turn decrease demand for energy ineffective apartments giving an incentive for landlords to take energy saving measures?
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