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Why Carbon Taxes Work

timharford.com

61–70 of 107 posts

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#61
post #58
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they'll just move closer to work This is often way more expensive than paying for heating. > will implement Home Office This only works for well paying IT jobs. Not the working class that actually physically work at factories, stores, restaurants, hospitals, etc etc that are underpaid and hit the most by taxes. > will demand public transport Demands are cool and everything, but you can’t sit around jobless for 1-2…

Another option: get work nearby. Some jobs will also get pay raises if there is demand for them, but people can't afford to take them. Working remote doesn't work just for IT, and I didn't claim everything works for everybody. And incrementally increased taxation will allow for planning. Poor people have a low enough foot print to profit with a dividend anyways. The real problem with carbon taxing is that it must be…

I’ve lived in the USA, EU, and Asia. Very very rarely can you get a job near your housing (suburbs) - residential vs commercial areas are intentionally zoned against this. Getting housing near your work (city center) is much easier, due to mixed zoning, but obviously way more expensive.

> profit with a dividend anyways

See, the thing is, there are no carbon dividends yet. We do have lots of carbon-like taxes (in the EU and elsewhere) though. So, there’s only loss, no gain.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#62
post #18

Global warming is a global problem. While carbon tax would be levied locally, creating incentives to just shift production to low or no tax locations. Just as harmonisation over Cororate Tax is finally emerging, similar cross-border agreements should be needed for a Carbon Tax.

Which is why mechanisms like carbon tariffs on imports are being designed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_Border_Adjustment_Mecha...

Even tariffs won't be enough. Iran is the 8th carbon emitter in the world despite heavy sanctions and tariffs and their entire oil export are under heavy sanctions, they export only a small fraction of what they can.

China will never cooperate, and they are 29% of the worlds emissions.

We need to realize there are simply more evil countries that don't care and will never care and prepare for the world after the warming. "Luckily" the warming will at least make all those Arabic countries exporting oil uninhabitable so we've got a chance they'll eventually change.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#63
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your viewpoint, but if you tax the common man such that they are unable to travel to work in the only car they can afford - the world will stop functioning. I often wonder why the elites don’t understand what their mistreatment of the proletariat will lead to…

On the other hand if you can't get the common man out of their polluting activities then you aren't going to solve the problem.

> common man out of their polluting activities

The common man is definitely less polluting than the average HNer - HN represents the upper % of the upper middle class. So really, the way you frame your reply makes me think you haven’t thought through the impact on your own polluting lifestyle.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#64
Of course they work. Fuels have historically been taxed quite highly in some countries. EVs are doing well in those countries and these countries tend to be a bit ahead of the curve in terms of adoption. Financial incentives help so they are a useful tool.

One caveat here is that governments also hand out subsidies and a much more effective way to penalize carbon emissions is simply to stop subsidizing it and then add the carbon tax on top. Yes, EVs get subsidized too. But it's peanuts to the many billions the oil and gas companies still continue to get their hands on to perpetuate the problem.

Whenever you hear oil companies defend blue hydrogen what they are really talking about is getting payed (with tax money) for the process of pumping insane amounts of natural gas for the next few decades so they can use that to produce hydrogen. That's "the hydrogen economy": pumping yet more gas to speed up how quickly our planet heats up. They'll emphasize how important that is and how green it is (or could be). Never mind that it is completely unprofitable to capture carbon at scale and of course tax payers are going pay for them pretending that it's going to be meaningful amounts. That's the game right now in terms of handouts. We're talking tens of billions being allocated for this madness.

Companies often double dip even and get also get subsidies for cleaning up their act (or pretending to) while also taking full advantage of governments wielding their power on their behalf, public spending on their infrastructure (e.g. pipelines), leniency when it comes to environmental issues, permits, and public money generally being used to clean up their mess.

A carbon tax would go towards balancing that; but only a little bit. Eliminating subsidies for carbon producers would cost the worst offenders the hardest and actually level the playing field in terms of cost for the alternatives that they've been allowed to unfairly undercut in pricing.

The irony is that getting rid of the subsidies is somehow more controversial than carbon taxes. That's how messed up our world is. We're actively paying to destroy it quicker currently. Every time you pay your taxes.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#65
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think the natural game theoretic result might be "carbon havens"? Areas that have the worst carbon enforcement / corruption (so issuing certificates to avoid tariffs etc without real action) would be more competitive than areas with effective enforcement so they will attract the most manufacturing. I don't think importing from countries without a carbon price will be a problem (border taxes seem like they can…

If high levels of fraud are detected other countries can just slap high "emergency" tarriffs until the country fixes the problem. This would most certainly disincentivize lax enforcement. The problem has always been lack of a will, not a way.

[deleted]

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#66
post #42

1) Tax carbon at the source - yes, that means every oil well and coal mine pays a whopping great tax before any fossil energy leaves the front gate. Prices will adjust all the way down the supply chain 2) Use this huge income source as global helicopter money, the dividend every person in the world gets from allowing other people to destroy their global shared ecosystem 3) Create various green energy projects into wh…

Sounds like a way to end up with women forced into having children they do not want.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#67
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a country you also can enforce restrictions/taxes onto the whole supply chain, as a initial measure (can't be done by weak countries though). Of course, mid term everyone should push for global carbon pricing models Germany was the only country that seems to have understood this, given they were the only ones that advocated for it at COP.

> As a country you also can enforce restrictions/taxes onto the whole supply chain, as a initial measure… Isn’t this an extremely hard problem, possibly unworkable, when trade is in assembled goods with complex, global supply chains?

Should be doable, see recent supply chain law of Germany regarding human rights

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#68
post #26
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most renters still have the option to turn down the thermostat though, so whilst the ability to respond to incentives may be dampened, they should still have an effect. Admittedly, there are some rentals with bills included. But if gas was very expensive, few landlords would offer it.

> Most renters still have the option to turn down the thermostat though I can’t tell if this is serious? You’re saying that the gov policy’s effect should be the common man freezing during winter? I don’t know anyone who runs their heating for shits and giggles. > Admittedly, there are some rentals with bills included I’ve seen very few (<10%) of rentals that come with utilities included. It wouldn’t make sense eithe…

> I don’t know anyone who runs their heating for shits and giggles.

Heating isn't a binary thing - we want people to minimise their use of gas within reason.

Most people I know could turn their heating down a couple of degrees and put on a warmer jumper, some thermal underwear, or sit with a hot water bottle whilst at their desk if working from home. I've managed to save >30% of my households gas usage in this way.

Yes, there are people on the poverty line who already use their heating at a minimal level. And at risk elderly people. This problem is best solved with subsidies to these specific groups, rather than gas that is too cheap for everyone relative to its environmental impacts.

This view (that a sizable portion of people can reasonably turn down their heat) is substantiated by UK government research, see e.g. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

For instance, there are lots of people heating rooms they don't even use, and heating their whole house overnight.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#69
post #38

That a carbon tax is a source of information about the highest leverage areas we can change is a great framing. Unfortunately, the main barrier to implementing a carbon tax is how we treat imports, which is the key to getting the whole thing to work. Failing to solve this means importers deindustrialize in favor of countries with more lenient carbon pricing regimes. “Do I have to spell it out for you? Just implement…

Then you also need to tax the uncertainty...

And of course no one will exaggerate this "uncertainty" as a cover for protectionism. /s

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#70
post #42

1) Tax carbon at the source - yes, that means every oil well and coal mine pays a whopping great tax before any fossil energy leaves the front gate. Prices will adjust all the way down the supply chain 2) Use this huge income source as global helicopter money, the dividend every person in the world gets from allowing other people to destroy their global shared ecosystem 3) Create various green energy projects into wh…

Sounds like a way to end up with women forced into having children they do not want.

Concentration camps full of women and children so the dictator can collect all that sweet carbon money.
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