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What Peng Shuai reveals about one-party rule

economist.com

271–280 of 347 posts

Re: What Peng Shuai reveals about one-party rule

#271
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the best of my knowledge, this is what's going on: - In China, censorship is common for any kind of controversy, regardless of whether they are pro- or anti-government. It's common for people to be silent during a controversy regardless of what it was about. Furthermore, censorship is not related to whether someone will be caught/jailed/kidnapped or not. See my writeups here for details: https://news.ycombinator.c…

I can't say you have answered my questions satisfactorily. Broadcasts from international news sources that mentioned Peng Shuai were censored - this is not just some procedural or algorithmic issue. And what business does the CCP have, if Peng Shuai is free from the kind of imprisonment it is assumed she is under, telling the public when she will be making a public statement? As for the Chinese public not believing s…

I edited my comment slightly and added more info. Not sure whether you've seen them.

> Broadcasts from international news sources that mentioned Peng Shuai were censored

I do not know about this specific issue. What I suspect is that now it has become a foreign relations issue, they are pushing for unity in messaging. Unity in messaging is a core principle in Chinese foreign relations practice.

> And what business does the CCP have, if Peng Shuai is free from the kind of imprisonment it is assumed she is under, telling the public when she will be making a public statement?

This is a matter of values. Westerners believe that government should interfere as little as possible in citizen matters. That's fine.

The Chinese don't tend to see the government in an adversarial manner. In general, they prefer a strong, centralized government that actively meddles in citizen matters as long as it is for the public benefit. They see the government as a partner (though, depending on times and context, "necessary evil" may sometimes be more appropriate) in building a better society rather than an enemy of a better society.

Furthermore, the CCP and the government aren't just a top-down imposition. They are the very fabric of society. They are everywhere. Every neighborhood has a neighborhood commitee who are party members. They help the neighborhood and perform important community management tasks. If you have a complaint about the neighborhood, you go to them. They regularly come ask you whether everything is fine, whether you need something. During Wuhan's COVID-19 lockdown they were the ones on the front lines, ensuring that health workers stay supplied and ensuring that food gets delivered to every household. The CCP has 90 million members, or about 5% of the population. Everybody has some relative that's a party member.

The Chinese public does not view the issue as "the govt is telling her to make a public statement". Rather, they view it as "the foreign public is making so much fuss about her, the government and the media are helping her voice get heard by foreign public". That her social media account remains blocked for now is seen as a completely separate matter, related to domestic social stability, which has got nothing to do with foreign relations.

Regarding the future of her censorship: that will be lifted once things have calmed down. See my case studies on Jack Ma and Fan Bingbing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29347811

With regards to the value judgement, it depends on whether you can accept that western values are not universal. I propose the thesis that they are not, because many other Asian and African countries have also criticized the western "our values are the only right ones" attitude.

Re: What Peng Shuai reveals about one-party rule

#272
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe that you earnestly feel this is an okay thing for the CCP to do This is a wrong characterization. China has different values and practices. Freedom means something different in China than in the west. China values other things more than western-style freedom of speech. For example there is a greater emphasis on responsibility. The practice you quoted is unacceptable in the west. That's fine — for you. Chi…

> The practice you quoted is unacceptable in the west. That's fine — for you. Chinese think differently and believe that such practices are sometimes necessary to prevent rumors from running wild and causing social instability. That's also fine — for them. What a marvelous coincidence for the CCP that "what Chinese people value", according to you, is the kind of submissive defference totalitarian governments desire f…

And so what if you view them as totalitarian? By and large the Chinese do not. Let them decide what kind of society they want. There's no need for you to make the judgement for them. They aren't forcing their ways on you either.

Re: What Peng Shuai reveals about one-party rule

#273
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't say you have answered my questions satisfactorily. Broadcasts from international news sources that mentioned Peng Shuai were censored - this is not just some procedural or algorithmic issue. And what business does the CCP have, if Peng Shuai is free from the kind of imprisonment it is assumed she is under, telling the public when she will be making a public statement? As for the Chinese public not believing s…

I edited my comment slightly and added more info. Not sure whether you've seen them. > Broadcasts from international news sources that mentioned Peng Shuai were censored I do not know about this specific issue. What I suspect is that now it has become a foreign relations issue, they are pushing for unity in messaging. Unity in messaging is a core principle in Chinese foreign relations practice. > And what business do…

Like I said in another response to you, it's a wonderful coincidence for a totalitarian government to be ruling over people who are so naturally deferential. There is no evidence of innate deference to totalitarian governments in Chinese people. Given environments out of control of the CCP, like Hong Kong or Taiwan, Chinese people eagerly engage in democratic processes.

Re: What Peng Shuai reveals about one-party rule

#274
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that number is absurdly high. But it doesn't change the fact that I pulled it from the York University study https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/05/did-pande... Do you know why I am angry and pushed to speak up so much about China lately? Because the reality on the ground turns out to be really different from mainsteam media depiction. For 25 years I have heard tropes like "Chinese people are oppresse…

It isn't really a question of agreement or disagreement. In the PRC people are jailed for complaining too much, or complaining about the wrong thing. You can't have an accurate picture of what people think about the state in those circumstances, especially when this information is distributed solely by government-sanctioned and/or actively censored outlets. Like that joke Zizek tells sometimes: "A German worker gets…

And I'm trying to say that "In the PRC people are jailed for complaining too much, or complaining about the wrong thing" is a mischaracterization at best, a complete falsehood at worst. I've found this to be the case after research.

But again, you don't have to believe me if you don't want to. Just don't claim I am insincere.

Re: What Peng Shuai reveals about one-party rule

#275
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I edited my comment slightly and added more info. Not sure whether you've seen them. > Broadcasts from international news sources that mentioned Peng Shuai were censored I do not know about this specific issue. What I suspect is that now it has become a foreign relations issue, they are pushing for unity in messaging. Unity in messaging is a core principle in Chinese foreign relations practice. > And what business do…

Like I said in another response to you, it's a wonderful coincidence for a totalitarian government to be ruling over people who are so naturally deferential. There is no evidence of innate deference to totalitarian governments in Chinese people. Given environments out of control of the CCP, like Hong Kong or Taiwan, Chinese people eagerly engage in democratic processes.

If you think that it's impossible for Chinese (or other countries in general) to have a different attitude towards government then you should watch some videos by Kishore Mahbubani, ex-UN Security Council head, ex-Singapore diplomat. For example https://youtu.be/zBpmm5hdbFQ

Furthermore, the characterization of China being "totalitarian" is wrong because China is in no way comparable to the likes of North Korea or Saudi Arabia. You should check out the works of political science professor Daniel A. Bell: https://youtu.be/ckt94_JWHPs

This isn't a "coincidence". The Chinese government has evolved to its current form because of Chinese values. The CCP won the civil war because it had support of the majority of the population.

Re: What Peng Shuai reveals about one-party rule

#276
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is truly bizarre when people trick themselves into the paradox of "I don't trust Government 1 but I trust everything they or their crony media says about Government 2"

Something funny and illustrative about the PRC for me was getting into shortwave radio. Let me explain. Sometimes certain people will tell you that the CCP isn't so censorious, that it's all Western hyperbole and propaganda, that most other governments are equivalent. But then you spin your dial through the shortwave broadcast bands and, no exaggeration, every 6 broadcasts or so will be the CCP jamming another broadc…

Just to play devil's advocate on that one, but maybe the Chinese understand the power of propaganda better than anyone and they don't want western propaganda disrupting their society?

Re: What Peng Shuai reveals about one-party rule

#277
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't really a question of agreement or disagreement. In the PRC people are jailed for complaining too much, or complaining about the wrong thing. You can't have an accurate picture of what people think about the state in those circumstances, especially when this information is distributed solely by government-sanctioned and/or actively censored outlets. Like that joke Zizek tells sometimes: "A German worker gets…

And I'm trying to say that "In the PRC people are jailed for complaining too much, or complaining about the wrong thing" is a mischaracterization at best, a complete falsehood at worst. I've found this to be the case after research. But again, you don't have to believe me if you don't want to. Just don't claim I am insincere.

> And I'm trying to say that "In the PRC people are jailed for complaining too much, or complaining about the wrong thing" is a mischaracterization at best, a complete falsehood at worst. I've found this to be the case after research.

I had an apologist describe it to be once like "if you want to suggest improvements in local government, or you want to make a request, as long as you do it respectfully, then there is no problem at all", as if that is what free people mean when they talk of complaint.

We've all had a nice refresher about what happens in China if you complain, about a sexual assault for example. For the sake of "social stability", of course.

Re: What Peng Shuai reveals about one-party rule

#278
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The practice you quoted is unacceptable in the west. That's fine — for you. Chinese think differently and believe that such practices are sometimes necessary to prevent rumors from running wild and causing social instability. That's also fine — for them. What a marvelous coincidence for the CCP that "what Chinese people value", according to you, is the kind of submissive defference totalitarian governments desire f…

And so what if you view them as totalitarian? By and large the Chinese do not. Let them decide what kind of society they want. There's no need for you to make the judgement for them. They aren't forcing their ways on you either.

They'd better not!

Re: What Peng Shuai reveals about one-party rule

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could make a similar argument and generalize about Europeans and claim European unity exists because for most of the past 2,000 years practically all states in Europe were under the influence of the Catholic church in some way or another. China's history is as complicated as any other similarly sized territory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:China_Dynasties.gif and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chi…

yes, you're right. There is a view of European history that sees the Roman Empire mutate into the Holy Roman Empire and maintain control over much of Europe for thousands of years (I guess from the end of the Republic in 27BC to the last Holy Roman Emperor in 1806, so not quite "thousands").

It depends what you mean with "roman empire mutate". HRE had no connection to the Roman Empire besides approval by the papacy.

Meanwhile, other "nations" entitled their ruler as a successor, bestowing upon them the title of Caesar, Kaiser, Tsar. So, you can link it up until the fall of Imperial Russia. Or you can even keep it up to today with Romania, or even Turkey.

When Constantinople fell, there were no lack of claims.

Re: What Peng Shuai reveals about one-party rule

#280
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And so what if you view them as totalitarian? By and large the Chinese do not. Let them decide what kind of society they want. There's no need for you to make the judgement for them. They aren't forcing their ways on you either.

They'd better not!

Rest assured then. Chinese foreign policy is based on non-interference.
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