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How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

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Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have friends and family who have had to delay lifesaving medical procedures because hospitals are still swamped and medical personnel are still overworked from dealing with the COVID cases we currently have. Societal standards for risk still need to take into account far, far more than just "Am I, personally, going to die from exactly this one risk factor?"

I agree, however the obvious answer is that society should then build more hospitals and train more nurses, the same way that China did in 2020. Not plunge the economy into debt and force millions of people to change their behavior because of a broken system.

> however the obvious answer is that society should then build more hospitals and train more nurses

And if you have a time machine, that's a great solution. Just go back about 7 years and tell them "we'll be needing a lot more medical staff around 2020, get training them, please". It's not really a wonderful solution now, though, due to the very long lead times for training staff.

> the same way that China did in 2020

While China did build more hospitals in 2020, it leaned heavily on redeployment of staff from non-impacted regions, because it was always largely able to keep covid a regional problem. It wasn't just producing new doctors and nurses in a week; they were coming from elsewhere. When covid is endemic, this option doesn't work very well.

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh OK. How many years will that take? You can't just staff these new hospitals with just new nurses, you need doctors and other support staff. We have a vaccine now. If everybody just got it when they could we could start to move on without spending millions or billions building new hospitals and paying people to train to become nurses and doctors in half a decade.

China built a 1000 bed covid hospital in 10 days and staffed it with army nurses. Compare this to requiring 330 million people to continually agree and coordinate basic pandemic behavior like masks and vaccines. Costs are largely irrelevant. Perhaps 100 million for such a hospital. This is 0.0001% of the 6+ trillion the government has spent on other covid actions.

Building hospitals isn't the problem; staffing them is. China was able to do this because that outbreak was a regional, not national, problem.

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#293
post #102

The average person (vax or anti-vax) will read this to the end, maybe even understand the numbers but then think "well, but half of COVID deaths are among the vaccinated". 90% of people know that Stats is the hardest math there is and the other 15% don't get it.

Not knowing statistics is a form of protection against depression, sadness and anxiety. Gotta thank god that the majority of people believe bad stuff doesn't apply to them. It's a burden for few. If you want to see society collapse just improve the literacy in statistics

> Not knowing statistics is a form of protection against depression, sadness and anxiety.

Hrm, I'd have thought the opposite. A lot of the things that many people spend a lot of time worrying about are really vanishingly unlikely.

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#294

Dear HN, should I, a man under 40 get a booster shot? How many months after my second dose should I get it? What are the best resources to answer this question? This information is scary hard to get for someone who wants science, not politics.

> a man under 40 get a booster shot?

Yes; there is minimal disadvantage to doing so, it appears probable that booster shots reduce the chances if getting covid (which, even if not fatal is often quite _unpleasant_), and thus transmitting it, and, while it is very rare for vaccinated under 40s to die of covid, well, no-one wants to be a statistic.

> How many months after my second dose should I get it?

Recommendation normally seems to be 5 or 6 months; some authorities are recommending after 3 months for J&J.

> What are the best resources to answer this question?

Your GP and local health authority.

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#295
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm speaking specifically of the age 10 to 59 age group. For the last 6 months that age group, the vaccinated are almost twice as likely to die of any cause than the unvaccinated.

That age group is too wide to make a meaningful comparison without standardising for age. Less than 10% of under-18s and less than 60% in the 18-24 age group have been fully vaccinated, whereas it's more than 80% for the 55-59 group. The unvaccinated population in that age group is significantly younger than the vaccinated population. As you would expect, older people tend to die more often. This is also mentioned in…

You could say the same for the covid death rate: generally saying that it is a deadly pandemic is misleading, because it disproportionately kills old and sick people, and those tend to die more often

Is the average covid death rate age adjusted?

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#296
post #84
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccination greatly reduces the rate of spread compared to the unvaccinated. [0] [0] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br...

I’m not convinced it matters that much. Regions with high vaccination rates are having corona spikes right now. In my country 92 % of adults are vaccinated and we have the highest number of cases since 2020. Gibraltar with 100 %, Ireland with 95 %, there are more countries/regions…, all having a big rise in cases and are going back into lockdown. So it doesn’t seem like the lower viral load is making much of a differ…

> Ireland with 95 %

In Ireland we have, today, rates substantially lower than the peak in January. The variant prevalent in January was far less infectious, and most stuff was closed in January (there was a sort of timid partial reopening of some pubs and restaurants the previous November, which was reversed at the end of December, no events with over 50 people were allowed, everyone was still told to work from home where possible, etc). Now we have a much more infectious variant, almost everything is open (though people were advised to work from home where possible last week), and the rate is still lower.

That actually looks like reasonable evidence that the vaccine _is_ somewhat effective at lowering the R number, to me. At any rate, something is clearly reducing infection; despite a much more infectious variant, and far, far more social mixing, the R number is lower than it was in January.

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#297
post #225

The Public Health England weekly report, already adjusted for percentage of vaccinated, for the last few weeks clearly shows more deaths of the vaccinated from covid and other causes The USA having more deaths this year than last, with the Delta that spreads faster but is less deadly Personally not vaccinated, had covid recently, and have no plans of getting vaccinated. Caught from my Pfizer vaccinated wife, and we b…

Are you referring to the same ONS data mentioned in [1]? That figure is highly misleading. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29323441

Can't find the data mention, or was edited out

Was this one? Mine is similar but released by PHE weekly, with more breakdowns

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde...

But even looking at this one you can see the trend shifting from end of September, where vaccinated are now dying more than unvaccinated

Do you think is misleading? Why? It is being used for months

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#298
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is even more frustrating to see the dogmatic approach to the fact that the vaccines are less effective than they were made out to be. The more this becomes clear, the harder it will be to keep up this narrative. I assume that you, just like most others here, wants to see these epidemics and the pandemic end as soon as possible with as little damage as possible? In that case it is adamant to be objective in the sea…

Let me see if I understand correctly your thesis (collated from several of your responses). 1. You believe/observe that the current generation of vaccines are useful. 2. You believe/observe that the current generation of vaccines are insufficient. 3. You believe/observe that many people (on HN?) have too much faith in vaccines as a silver bullet. 4. You believe/observe that the government responses (in western countr…

> Is that correct?

No, not really. Instead of walking your points I can summarise my position on this issue as it does not really differ from my position on most other issues.

My starting point is objectivity and as such I dislike narrative. When SARS2 became a thing it was woven into a number of narratives, one of which has now become dominant in many western countries. This narrative revolves around a collectivist technocratic approach to tackling what is deemed to be a severe threat against public health. The technocracy gets to dictate how people are to act, when they are to act, with whom they are allowed to interact and when they have to refrain from interacting with anyone. Dissenters are quickly labelled and attempts are made to publicly shame those who oppose. The tools of the technocracy are deemed to be highly effective and, again, dissenters are labelled and shamed. The problems with this approach are manifold:

- SARS2 is not a severe threat for large swaths of the population - this became clear early on in the pandemic and has been clear ever since.

- liberal democracy and technocracy do not mix, the former depends on dissent and discussion to reach a consensus while the latter can not tolerate dissent. Most western countries have liberal democratic traditions in one form or another, most people like it that way and want to keep these traditions alive.

- the tools of the technocracy are not nearly as effective - and in some cases not effective at all, or worse (e.g. forcing people to shelter in place, not allowing them to go outdoors) - as stated but those who point this out are quickly marked as dissenters, labelled and shunned. The same is done to anyone who suggests alternatives to the officially mandated tools.

- authoritarian powers, once gained, are hard to give up.

Once the epidemics and the pandemic are over - in a year or 2 - an overview of the pros and cons of the different strategies should be made based on real data (i.e. raw verified data) by neutral observers (if such can be found). What I expect that overview to show is that the costs of the more authoritarian measures - strict lockdowns, school closures, severe limits to personal contacts - ended up being higher than the benefits. Those costs can be expressed in lives lost to (substance/physical) abuse, loneliness, estrangement and other social impacts leading to an increase in suicides. They can be expressed in the loss of academic achievement due to school closures leading to a lowering of future prospects for the affected. As tends to be the case these impacts are not equally spread over all classes of society, the lower classes are hit much harder than the middle and higher.

With all these things in mind it should be now be clear that for me the issues are not so much related to whether the vaccines are useful or not or whether masking works or not. If the vaccines are shown to work people will take them without the need for a dictate from the authorities to do so. Even if they are shown to only be marginally effective those in the most vulnerable groups will still take them to lower their personal risk. Locking down society has not been proven to be effective in reducing the spread of transmission [1,2] while it has a marked impact on social well-being as well as economic activity. The Swedish example shows that people voluntarily adjust their behaviour to limit the risk of personal exposure without a need for the authorities to intervene. People make risk assessments every day, some of them rational - people tend to not cross busy motorways since they know they probably won't survive - and other irrational. A policy based on informing people of the true risks (which was hard to do in the beginning of the pandemic but a lot easier a few months in), providing means - informational, material, medical and economical - to lower those risks and a limited number of targeted actions to keep essential services running is compatible with a liberal democratic political tradition and does far less damage to society than an authoritarian regime of lockdowns and forced medical procedures.

The authoritarian approach might fit countries with an authoritarian political tradition, China or - earlier - the Soviet Union being prime examples of such. Western countries tend(ed) to pride themselves on not being 'like China' or 'like the Soviet Union'. I'd like to keep it that way, if I want to live in an authoritarian state there are plenty of such to move to. I did not do so, instead I moved from one liberal democracy to another.

[1] https://www.hhs.se/sv/forskning/sse-corona-economic-research...

[2] https://academic.oup.com/cesifo/article/67/3/318/6199605

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#299

It really seems like it's safe to say that a fully vaccinated person's risk of dying from covid is low enough where based on the pre-2020 accepted societal standards for risk there should be next to no behavior modification expected.

> there should be next to no behavior modification expected. So, there are a few things here. Purely from an individual point of view, for the average vaccinated (and especially the average boosted person), this is probably largely true. And indeed if the whole population was vaccinated then this would probably largely be true for everyone. But the elephant in the room is the hospitals. If rates are high enough that…

Why haven't governments been working hard at increasing capacity in terms of ventilators and hospital beds and other needed equipment, since March 2020? Back then governments actually did that, and set up emergency beds.

I know that there's a shortage of personnel, but it just seems that this would've been something to work towards since the beginning. I don't know what is practically needed from the personnel to nurse Solve the equation for the younger patients and boom, you can increase hospital capacity (or setup new "Covid ICU:s") and just let the wave hit. Seems it would be such a better solution than whatever we're doing now (prolonging the backlogs forever).

Re: How death rates from Covid-19 differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? 0.2 percent of American's have already died from this. Or put another way, 99.98% is the current best real live actual number of how survivable Covid-19 is. Not some made up number with a bunch more 9's or 0's, but 99.98%. Three nines would be pathetic for a website's uptime. (I might be biased on that one, I do that professionally.) This puts it 3rd on the list of health reasons Americans die, behind cancer a…

COVID19 is NOT a personal health emergency. As an American, your chance of dying from COVID are vanishingly small, and even your chance of being seriously ill or suffering from "long COVID" are extremely small. But ... COVID19 IS a public health emergency. It is contagious enough and causes a need for hospitalization enough that it is fairly easy for it to overwhelm our public health care systems. This means that whe…

> overloading hospitals

This has been the #1 (if not the only) concern from the beginning. It baffles me how little focus is being put into it.

Why not pour a ton of resources into hospital capacity, equipment, training staff (quick courses with guaranteed well-paid work), finding solutions that require less staff..? Being to scale up this operation seems imperative for when something like this happens in the future. I.e. spin up new Covid ICU:s when/where needed. We seem to be highly inelastic/incapable in this regard.

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