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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#291
post #168
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You call it mature but an outsider would have no idea about what's happening. I have no way of forming an idea whether it's utter bs or if there is something actually going wrong.

Moderating a community is not meant to entertain outsiders, but to prevent escalation within the community. No offense, but what do you expect to be able to contribute to this situation as an outsider? Would your contribution to the community be improved by additional information?

> No offense, but what do you expect to be able to contribute to this situation as an outsider?

Who are the "insiders" here? A couple dozen people?

Rust is supposed to cater to their user base, not the dramas of a few people who need attention and something to do with their life.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#292

Comrade Klabnik has been as toxic for the Rust community as he was for the Ruby on Rails community. This could actually turn out to be a positive for the future of the language and community. I'm not a fan of Amazon but if they took over as it's stewards it would be a lot better.

I hope you don’t mind me asking; I might just be missing a reference here. Is Comrade Klabnik a person, or is it a saying?

https://evrone.com/steve-klabnik-interview

He's a core team member and responsible for making rust accessible to audiences that might not reach for rust first, (rubyists, etc.)

he's responsible for creating a lot of top-notch documentation for Rust developers.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#293
post #106
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on the Elm breakdown? I don't remember reading about it.

There's been a longstanding issue that a lot of people are unhappy with the level of control that Evan exercises over the development of the language. On top of that, a lot of the development of the core language happens behind closed doors, which has given the impression of stagnation over the past few years. As I understand it, the fundamental reason for this situation is technical. It is really difficult to enforc…

> As I understand it, the fundamental reason for this situation is technical. It is really difficult to enforce purity in a strict language with an FFI, because the behavior of side-effecting functions would be predictable and they'd be easy to use.

My understanding is that

1. FFIs are still available to NoRedInk, Evan's employer.

2. The change was partly justified as a way to manage the Elm ecosystem.

In general, Evan seems to have a history of changing the language in response to changes in the ecosystem that he does not like e.g. he did not like to kinds of custom infix operators people were defining so he removed the ability to define custom infix operators.

> A lot of people seem to really deeply believe that Evan owes them something, and is required to manage his project along the lines of some kind of standard 'open source' model.

I think this is slightly uncharitable. While I haven't followed his activities recently, Evan spent time trying to build community around Elm. People contributed to the ecosystem based on a combination of implicit and explicit promises that the community's needs would matter, I've chatted with a few people who say Evan gave them personal assurances about long term usability. Evan benefitted from some of these contributions, in prestige, bug reports, etc. Then Evan broke almost everyone's code and was unapologetic about it. I don't think it's unreasonable to feel like some kind of social contract was broken.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#294
post #267

> You'll never get everyone to settle on the same moral values so it's inevitable that you'll get someone who is unapologetic about some value they hold. I'm less familiar with Rust community moderation, but as an example of what not to do, I would offer up the Go maintainers' strategy of advertising unrelated, partisan, ideological content on their web pages and then shutting down any kind of critical conversation a…

It's sad that the Equal Justice Initiative[0] (linked by the Go homepage) is considered partisan. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Justice_Initiative

The full statement on golang.org is:

"Black Lives Matter. Support the Equal Justice Initiative."

Perhaps the poster was referring to the first half?

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#295
post #228

I don't believe proper free software projects require significant moderation of behavior between individuals. If someone says something that rises to the level of a crime, report it to your local authorities. Otherwise, if a person is generally toxic enough, they will be worked around. Note that expelling a person from a project for being a jerk in one or more instances may do more harm than good. What is the value o…

> Linux has changed the world -- in a very substantial way and much for the better -- even though Linus flew off the handle at people for years. That doesn't mean he is completely beyond criticism, but it does indicate to me that we need to put a significant check in place against these "feelings committees." Their sensibilities are becoming ever more delicate.

Even Linux admits his behaviour was unproductive and has apologised and improved his communication.

Personally, I think an expectation of a little professionalism from people is hardly "ever more delicate". Rather, it's people who feel entitled to spout any profanity or insult they want without reaction who seem unable to deal with the consequences of their actions.

> Otherwise, if a person is generally toxic enough, they will be worked around.

What you are describing is that if you are "valuable enough", you get to be toxic to people without consequence. That's a good way to breed toxicity.

There is this trope of the "genius asshole" who is too valuable to lose. I suspect that in a lot of cases these people are too valuable precisely because they drive away other contributors that would otherwise lead to a more healthy project.

> Unfortunately, some snowflakes like to believe that everyone contributes equally. That is simply not the case. And, in fact, some people contribute a _negative_ amount overall. Which is to say, the project is better off without their participation.

You intended this to support your argument, but it seems to undermine it. The odds are that one individual is going to contribute less than all the people they are likely to drive away with toxicity. Toxic developers are likely to be the net negative contributors as you describe.

It really seems like your whole argument is predicated on capability and toxicity being directly correlated, which in my experience—while something toxic people want to believe—is a nonsense excuse for enabling bad behaviour.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#296
post #228

I don't believe proper free software projects require significant moderation of behavior between individuals. If someone says something that rises to the level of a crime, report it to your local authorities. Otherwise, if a person is generally toxic enough, they will be worked around. Note that expelling a person from a project for being a jerk in one or more instances may do more harm than good. What is the value o…

I work at a volunteer and we had someone with some skills come in but they were pretty toxic. We had a some of volunteers leave or contribute less. We've sometimes had disagreements on this project before (a website.. not super technical), but this was a new level of bad.

Skilled people have lots of options for volunteering and they'll just leave and volunteer somewhere else.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're correct in that there is no law saying that employers are prohibited from disclosing why a person was fired. But the policies are a result of laws that could open them up to legal action if they were to disclose any specifics. However unlikely that legal action may be, and probably even more unlikely to succeed, they still gain nothing from any such disclosures so it makes perfect sense to prohibit them.

It's not that simple. Arbitrary firings are bad for morale, so it's in management's interest for the remaining employees to understand what happened.

In my experience, remaining employees generally understand what happened without the company having to disclose exact reasonings. Especially publicly.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#298
post #243
post #228

I don't believe proper free software projects require significant moderation of behavior between individuals. If someone says something that rises to the level of a crime, report it to your local authorities. Otherwise, if a person is generally toxic enough, they will be worked around. Note that expelling a person from a project for being a jerk in one or more instances may do more harm than good. What is the value o…

> Otherwise, if a person is generally toxic enough, they will be worked around. While this is generally true the workarounds can and do take time, and while all this is happening there's a lot of space for a person to do significant damage to the project in the meantime.

> the workarounds can and do take time

That's a feature, not a bug. Most big decisions can and should take time. Usually because it's not a simple matter of "this guy is a massive dick to everyone and contributes hardly anything."

More often it's "this guy carries this project, and he is an asshole when people show up and run their mouth because they think they're smarter than they are." Which is to say - it's a shade of gray, not black or white.

In the truly dire situations, movements happen quickly. See the recent collapse of FreeNode IRC.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#299
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The accusation is not vague and it was substantiated. Just not to you. Not to me either, and I think that's a good thing for now. No doubt whoever steps up to become the next mod team will be fully informed by both sides, and hopefully they can make an objective decision about what should and what should not be public. It is probably none of our business anyway. And it's not a claim that everything they would say wou…

An accusation substantiated in secret is not an accusation substantiated. This is a fundamental principle of justice, dating back centuries.

Protecting people's privacy is a fundamental principle of justice, too. It's extremely common for court records in cases regarding people's conduct to be sealed.

Forcing people to air all their dirty laundry in public, as the Puritans did, is not just, and tends to severely limit already-marginalized people's access to justice.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#300
post #267

> You'll never get everyone to settle on the same moral values so it's inevitable that you'll get someone who is unapologetic about some value they hold. I'm less familiar with Rust community moderation, but as an example of what not to do, I would offer up the Go maintainers' strategy of advertising unrelated, partisan, ideological content on their web pages and then shutting down any kind of critical conversation a…

It's sad that the Equal Justice Initiative[0] (linked by the Go homepage) is considered partisan. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Justice_Initiative

i think the parent was referring to https://github.com/golang/go/issues/45970
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