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Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

lse.ac.uk

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Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#111

Post by dudeinjapan »

ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #85
monkeybutton wrote: post #6

Octopi I understand, but lobsters? They have less than half the nervous system of an ant [1]. Are individual ants sentient and worthy of legislating over? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of...

Octopi is not the correct plural. Octopus is of greek origin, not latin. Thus, its greek plural is octopodes. And thus, since we don't tend to use greek plurals in english, the other proper plural is octopuses. Octopi is what's known as a hypercorrection. "A hypercorrection is non-standard use of language that results from the over-application of a perceived rule of language-usage prescription. A speaker or writer wh…

I asked an octopus and he said he prefers "octopi".

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#112

Post by Tagbert »

ModernMech wrote: post #68
agravier wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are not all animals recognised as such under that law?

The original source linked in TFA states anything with a backbone is covered.

Which would not apply to either octopuses, crabs, or lobsters

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#113

Post by mrsmee89 »

hi41 wrote: post #92

The essay "Consider the Lobster" by David Foster Wallace came to my mind. In that essay he describes how extraordinary the nervous system of a lobster is and how mindlessly and cruelly we boil them live. If David were still alive, he would definitely welcome this development. I really miss David. I am awestruck by his other essay "This is Water". I am amazed at his deep insights into human nature and how well he desc…

Both of those essays are fantastic.

I find “This is water” to be especially poignant.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#114

Post by shkkmo »

Natsu wrote: post #39
moeris wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The bar for sentience is quite low. It only means that one is capable of feeling sensations. (For example, Wikipedia gives the definition, "Sentience is the capacity to experience feelings and sensations.")

Are fetuses not sentient for most of their growth, then?

Human fetuses become sentient sometime between 8-30 weeks (depending on who you ask and how they define sentience).

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#115

Post by mrsmee89 »

systemvoltage wrote: post #43
coolandsmartrr wrote: post #32

David Foster Wallace once wrote an essay called "Consider the Lobster." He argued for the merciful eating of lobsters; rather than boil them alive, make their death instantaneous. How will the legal recognition change their treatment?

It is actually insane that there is so much violence in nature. Every minute, there are millions of living things dying – many with unimaginable pain. The evolutionary engine is absolutely merciless. If I want to be terrified, I think what if we, instead of at the top of the food chain, were just second. It terrifies me to no end.

> If I want to be terrified, I think what if we, instead of at the top of the food chain, were just second. It terrifies me to no end.

That’s a horrifying thought. Thanks :)

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#116

Post by willis936 »

ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #97
timClicks wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because at times it's convenient to maim and/or kill them.

Sometimes it is necessary. Pest control is inherent. We cannot allow mice, rats, etc to live in urban environments unchecked. Mice are sentient, does that mean we should only use no-kill traps and then release the mice somewhere far away? Many urban pests have population numbers that are 50-100X higher per square mile in the city than they could sustain in the countryside. So if we could even theoretically capture th…

To make it simpler: consider the lobster. It's not a pest yet still isn't considered above being boiled alive for no reason other than "that's what paw deid".

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#117

Post by forgotmyoldname »

chrisweekly wrote: post #11

Crabs and lobsters are basically bugs, whereas an octopus is a creative, playful, intelligent creature with amazing capabilities. It seems strange to group them together.

Within the realm of what many people consider “bugs”, intelligence also exists. For example, jumping spiders have intelligence similar to mammals or birds. Research is ongoing with bees and they’re seeming similarly advanced, with some having the capacity to suffer depression.

In all likelihood, there exist insects with reasonably high levels intelligence that we’ve simply overlooked for centuries. Basically everyone today knows crows and octopuses are very intelligent animals, but that definitely was not a common sentiment when I was a kid. But nobody was really paying attention to animals then beyond “pest”, “edible”, “pet”, and “looks cool.”

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#118

Post by patmcc »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #67
systemvoltage wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is actually insane that there is so much violence in nature. Every minute, there are millions of living things dying – many with unimaginable pain. The evolutionary engine is absolutely merciless. If I want to be terrified, I think what if we, instead of at the top of the food chain, were just second. It terrifies me to no end.

If you really want to be terrified, consider the possibility that most animals have no idea what a food chain is. So by extension - if in fact we weren't at the top of the food chain, would we even know?

Bacteria, fungi

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#119

Post by colechristensen »

ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #85
monkeybutton wrote: post #6

Octopi I understand, but lobsters? They have less than half the nervous system of an ant [1]. Are individual ants sentient and worthy of legislating over? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of...

Octopi is not the correct plural. Octopus is of greek origin, not latin. Thus, its greek plural is octopodes. And thus, since we don't tend to use greek plurals in english, the other proper plural is octopuses. Octopi is what's known as a hypercorrection. "A hypercorrection is non-standard use of language that results from the over-application of a perceived rule of language-usage prescription. A speaker or writer wh…

This is English, not Latin or Greek. There’s no such thing as “correct” in language as long as you can be understood, especially for silly details like how to make a plural. You’ll find octopi in the dictionary because it is commonly used. Remember all words are made up anyway.

If you’re not the editor of a publication making local standards for how you want to use language, it’s better not to correct people when they’re perfectly well understood.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#120

Post by drekipus »

Natsu wrote: post #39
moeris wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The bar for sentience is quite low. It only means that one is capable of feeling sensations. (For example, Wikipedia gives the definition, "Sentience is the capacity to experience feelings and sensations.")

Are fetuses not sentient for most of their growth, then?

of course
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