Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009) • Hacker News Board

Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)

#71

Post by MereInterest » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 10:20 PM UTC

tuatoru wrote: post #21

mojuba wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then the piece omits the two overwhelmingly important reasons: cost and reliability. Plus that not all industrial designers can create great designs. Often times when I look at e.g. my Bosch electric cooktop I can only imagine its awful touch panel was an afterthought in the design process. It's so bad, awkward and hard to use, it makes me feel sorry for those who created this thing. And for all its users just as w…

No, you don't replace the steering wheel because that's safety critical and the superiority of the UI is overwhelmingly important. You don't get to sell the product at all with a defect like that, so the "cost to the manufacturer" is pretty big. The entertainment system, or a phone? Not safety critical, no need to provide real-time interaction. Cost dominates.

My car has a physical knob for the volume, which can also be pushed in to disable the entertainment system entirely. If I need to turn off the radio in order to give full concentration to driving, I don't need to navigate through menus in order to turn it off. I'd consider that safety critical.

Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)

#72

Post by pomian » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 10:21 PM UTC

dghughes wrote: post #39

mwcampbell wrote: post #34

I'll offer a contrary perspective that I haven't yet read here: Digital controls have the potential to be more accessible to people who can't turn a knob due to a mobility impairment. Edit: See also ndarilek's explanation of how his mobility-impaired girlfriend benefits from Alexa: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20344613

The problem with that is digital controls are often made much smaller than its physical equivalent. Things like pill bottles have large diameter caps for people with dexterity problems. That same person may not be able to press a small flat "button" due to hand-eye co-ordination problems. Or they may not even be able to feel the surface with their fingertips. For myself I hate having to go tap tap tap tap tap tap tap…

and none of those tap tap tap buttons, work with gloves.

Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)

#73

Post by markdown » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 10:23 PM UTC

bitbckt wrote: post #65

markdown wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a 2019 Toyota Hilux (called Tacoma's in the US) and it doesn't have any knobs or buttons at all. However, the 2021 brought them back. https://imgur.com/a/Qtfartc

A Hilux and Tacoma are two different vehicles: different engine options, different chassis, and almost zero interchangeable parts. Try taking a Tacoma to a parts counter outside the US, or Hilux to one in the US, and you’ll just get blank stares.

Thanks for that. I've always just assumed it was just a rebrand plus cosmetic (body+interior) changes.

Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)

#74

Post by guessbest » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 10:23 PM UTC

guessbest wrote: post #10

webwielder2 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Datedness of that speculation aside, was dialing numbers without looking at the keypad something people did a lot? Busy Wall Street types maybe?

I could do it while driving. It was much easier to do than you would imagine. The keypad only had 9 keys and if you would put the base of your thumb lightly on the 2 key you could reach the whole keypad without issue. Just about everyone learned to do this without trying. People who had predictive text like T9 had to work at it a little, but it was like riding a bicycle.

Sorry I meant the tip of the thumb on the 2 key. Telephone keypads are inverted. Also the sometimes keys would have a raised bump in the middle key like the 5 key so you type blind.

Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)

#75

Post by juancb » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 10:24 PM UTC

jimmygrapes wrote: post #26

Alphonse Chapanis rolls fitfully in his grave whenever a new touchscreen is installed on a car. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphonse_Chapanis

That's a trend in general aviation and it's maddening. It's all of the problems this thread has raised about touch screens in cars but with added turbulence as an extra hurdle and spatial disorientation a safety risk. You can't just pull over and deal with the finicky touch screen.

Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)

#76

Post by scarecrowbob » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 10:33 PM UTC

jedimastert wrote: post #67

Not a car, but my main gigging keyboard for as long as I've been gigging has been the Korg SV-1, and a big part of the reason is that there's no screens, only knobs. It's a pretty great interface, all in all. 90% of the time I use the presets I made for myself the first week I got it, but whenever I need something else I have no trouble doing it within seconds. It's fairly limited, in terms of features and sound bank…

I got the SV-1 specifically because of the limited interface.

Not a big fan of the organs, but the other stuff all has worked great for me. It's paid for itself several times over. My usual live keyboard setup is the SV-1 under an ASM hydrasynth.

Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)

#77

Post by ratww » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

jedimastert wrote: post #67

Not a car, but my main gigging keyboard for as long as I've been gigging has been the Korg SV-1, and a big part of the reason is that there's no screens, only knobs. It's a pretty great interface, all in all. 90% of the time I use the presets I made for myself the first week I got it, but whenever I need something else I have no trouble doing it within seconds. It's fairly limited, in terms of features and sound bank…

I’m very happy that even the new generation of affordable synths is mostly analog with single function knobs. Arturia MicroFreak/MiniFreak, Korg Monologue/Minilogue, lots of Behringer clones.

You can get productive with them in minutes rather than in days.

Previous generations required either lots of menu diving (everything in the 90s) or had the pesky multifunction knobs (Microkorg).

Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)

#78

Post by EL_Loco » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

webwielder2 wrote: post #4

rp1 wrote: post #2

I too want knobs, but this line exemplifies why they're not coming back: > I wonder if Apple iPhone will meet with the same success, as its touchscreen offers no tactile feedback. Will people get tired of having to look down every time they dial a number?

Datedness of that speculation aside, was dialing numbers without looking at the keypad something people did a lot? Busy Wall Street types maybe?

99.5% of the time I only call my wife, my parents, my sisters, and my four best friends. That's 9 people. With my so much missed flip-phone I could do this, check it out:

Walk around the city with phone in pocket. Need to call one of them: pick phone from pocket (without looking), thumb-flick the screen open (without looking), thumb-press the person's speed dial number (without looking), done.

or

Walk around the city with phone in pocket. Phone vibrates. pick phone from pocket (without looking), glance at front screen for 1/3 sec to see who it was. If wanted to take the call, thumb-flick the screen open (without looking) while raising phone to ear (without looking), done. If not, toss phone back in pocket.

There was also the cost-of-phone factor. The thing was so cheap, I treated it like there was an old crumpled piece of paper in my pocket, never worried if it would get scratched or if the screen would crack. The constant worry when my smarphone falls on the floor sucks. I never had a better phone experience than with my flip-phone. Sadly, recently Whatsapp became so ubiquitous here, that people stopped calling and only texted, and eventually I had to upgrade.

Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)

#79

Post by duped » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 10:37 PM UTC

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #70

tuatoru wrote: post #16

> So what do product designers have against knobs? Several things. ... Then the piece omits the two overwhelmingly important reasons: cost and reliability. Knobs definitely are much better to use, but things with moving parts that stick out from the surface are not as reliable in population terms. Most people never have trouble, but that quintile that gives their stuff a hard time costs manufacturers a lot.

There is a shitton of very crappy rotary encoders out there that attest to that. For example, most microwaves I've seen that use knobs tend to wear them down pretty fast. Mine has a pretty much analog timer and just cannot be set for anything less than 1 min since it will randomly stop somewhere in the 0-60s interval due to wear. A relative's oven has a digital relative rotary encoder, but again due to wear it tends…

Automotive and aviation grade pots/encoders/switches are a different class of product and a good deal more expensive than the garbage they'll put on consumer electronics.

Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)

#80

Post by NikolaNovak » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 10:43 PM UTC

SyzygistSix wrote: post #30

Seriously. Without a dedicated on/off/volume knob for the soundsystem, the driving experience is diminished drastically, no matter how nice the car. And of course touch is way better than eyesight when you are supposed to be paying attention to the road. As someone else said, rough motor skills are safer and more appropriate in a car then controls needing fine motor skills.

I know this makes me a clueless annoying boring techie nerd :), but I still cannot properly fathom how this is a minority opinion.

NOBODY in my non-techie group of friends or family cares. Not.even.remotely.

I watch them struggle with their touch screens, I even listen to them rant, but when asked about it afterwards, it's fine. Just fine. Sexy. Sleek. Desirable. Why do I have to go and ruin everything?

Honestly, even HVAC - I watch my family with "Auto HVAC" constantly fiddle with it, as they scroll to some meaningless numbers - 18C, 21C, 24C, back to 20C, etc all in the same drive. Whereas my ancient Subaru knob stays in the same position through the drive, without needing to ever look at it. If it's on the right, hot air will blow; if it's on the left, cold air will blow. Whereas with Auto, you literally never know what you're going to get. It's not on conscious level - everybody thinks their Auto A/C it's awesome. Until you watch their actual sub-conscious behaviour on a drive.