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Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

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Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#131

Post by Chris2048 »

ZGDUwpqEWpUZ wrote: post #52
donohoe wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not saying that. But there are many (typically men's rights orgs) who seize on stories like this to say that 'enough is enough and truly it is us men who are being marginalized [in ways beyond what the article says]' and thats not at all true.

Men are marginalized in many ways beyond what this one article says - education, criminal justice, mental health to name but a few broad areas. Anyone who says otherwise is part of the problem and should have no voice in this conversation. Happy International Men's Day.

> Anyone who says otherwise is part of the problem and should have no voice in this conversation.

This is the same intolerant gatekeeping that I loathe in the feminist camp. Everyone has a voice, anyone can participate, no one-person gets to define "the" problem, let alone label/dehumanize people as being problems.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#132

Post by dktoao »

finite_jest wrote: post #94

I think this is a good reminder that if you are male and live in a Western country, it is quite likely that you are being overtly discriminated against. It even has an Orwellian name: "affirmative action" [1]. Women may face other types of workplace discrimination, as the article also says, but when it comes to hiring and college admissions there is overt and (mostly) legal discrimination against men. This is support…

I see this hot take way too often and I take it that you didn't read any of your sources to see if they actually supported your claim. Because:

[1] Yes, Wikipedia confirms that affirmative action is a thing societies across the world engage in it to try to have a representative cross section of the population engaged in critical aspects of society. And yes, in America since the practice became enshrined in law that meant it has cut into the edge that white men have. But if in the future white men become under-represented for whatever reason, I would hope that it would work in the reverse to help give a boost. And in-fact this is already being seen in college admissions for white men vs. asian americans and females. Which leads to your second source:

[2] The article points out that white men are underrepresented in college but the reason given is not affirmative action, but rather cultural. Many young men just are not making the choice to go to college (for better or for worse). It even says in TFA that "The Wall Street Journal reports that many colleges are putting their fingers _on_ the scale for male applicants", which is a direct refutation of your point.

[3] I could file a lawsuit against the state that says politicians are colluding with martian men to keep taco prices down. That doesn't make it true.

[4] Well I have never seen anyone _cite_ an anecdote so...

EDIT: Spelling and grammar

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#133

Post by [deleted] »

finite_jest wrote: post #94

I think this is a good reminder that if you are male and live in a Western country, it is quite likely that you are being overtly discriminated against. It even has an Orwellian name: "affirmative action" [1]. Women may face other types of workplace discrimination, as the article also says, but when it comes to hiring and college admissions there is overt and (mostly) legal discrimination against men. This is support…

[deleted]

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#134

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

bjourne wrote: post #121

I took a quick look at the comments on this article and I find it fascinating that almost every commenter accepts the study's conclusions at face value. Having been a HN reader for several years, I know how incredibly rare that is! The top voted comment is always something like "Correlation is not causation", "Yeah, but did the authors consider ?", or something about how the methods does not allow one to draw very fa…

The people who have come out with viewpoints that "gender X is under-represented vs. gender Y in position Z due to the objective superiority of gender Y wrt. quality W which is important in position Z" have ... had a hard time of it.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#135

Post by crate_barre »

Loughla wrote: post #113
crate_barre wrote: post #16

Humans gonna human. No one group is particularly more righteous, as much as the recent zeitgeist wants to lull us into this belief. Many people even believe that countries would be better off if mostly women ran it. Well, all you’d have is a bunch of corrupt women instead of a bunch of corrupt men.

This actually hits on an argument that I don't understand that is actively and currently happening around me. I work in a place that is currently undergoing some diversity, equity, and inclusion education for staff. One camp sees it as an attack on themselves. "I'm not racist, I can't be racist, I would never act like that." One camp sees it as an opportunity to attack others. "My experience is that people like you a…

It’s fundamentally because we are trying to tackle a systemic issue (a macro level issue) at the micro level (day to day human interaction). Most people are not going to be (or even are) racist/prejudiced to each other in the day to day. Similar to how most Americans won’t ever have someone build our phones and make our clothes for pennies on the dollar if it was up to us, truly. However, systemically, we will still buy all these things, that’s simply how the system is set up.

If you take something like prejudice toward a race with respect to crime, or prejudice toward a gender with respect to competence, these things are happening at a level that require systems-level thinking. If you beef up certain communities with respect to opportunities, or funnel more people toward certain industries much earlier in their life, the outcomes will appear at the macro level. Once that happens, the reduction in those biases will manifest.

But sitting everyone down and saying ‘let’s all sit down and do our own small little part’ will not actually solve anything. But, that is most likely the reason we (humans gonna human) are doing this. It’s a form of procrastination, let’s beat around the bush. Let’s organize our folders and sharpen our pencils, but not study for the test. Let’s buy new gym sneakers and gym outfit, and actually get a new gym membership, but never go to the gym.

Oddly, it’s almost like America only does the algos part of the software interview, but never the System design part. Micro vs Macro.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#136

Post by temp8964 »

bjourne wrote: post #121

I took a quick look at the comments on this article and I find it fascinating that almost every commenter accepts the study's conclusions at face value. Having been a HN reader for several years, I know how incredibly rare that is! The top voted comment is always something like "Correlation is not causation", "Yeah, but did the authors consider ?", or something about how the methods does not allow one to draw very fa…

The researchers sent out identical resumes for job applications. If the general stereotype “men have less emotional iq” is the argument, it is actually discrimination based on gender stereotypes. You didn’t offer any valid methodological rebuttal to the study.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#137

Post by Ginden »

guerrilla wrote: post #96
dTal wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like pretty standard out-group stigmatization that you also hear applied to immigrants, people of color etc...

I don't know about stealing but is it not the case that most sex offenders are men? That seems like an actual risk wherase the accusations at play in racism are just made up.

> I don't know about stealing but is it not the case that most sex offenders are men? That seems like an actual risk wherase the accusations at play in racism are just made up.

This conclusion seems to be quite controversial, because race is correlated with certain crimes in terms of "actual risk". It's likely because of social factors (because eg. black immigrants to US aren't significantly more likely to commit crimes than white immigrants to US, even after controlling for education), but it doesn't change "actual risk".

If you argue that "actual risk" means actually "choice between two identical people, with skin color being only variable, after ideal control for socioeconomic factors", you should prove that of "identical people, with gender being only variable, after ideal control for socioeconomic factors" man is more likely to commit sexual crime.

Personally I would argue that both race-crime and gender-crime statistics are largely or completely due to social factors.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#138

Post by stewx »

These were the positions for which men were most discriminated against:

- Men were half as likely as women to get a response when applying for a child care position (25.7% of men vs. 52.8% of women)

- Men were half as likely as women to get a response when applying for a cleaner position (12.1% men vs. 27.8% women)

Link to study: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#139

Post by PeterHolzwarth »

sundvor wrote: post #70
endymi0n wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note the hypothesis about risk being a predominantly male trait is also consistent at the other end with men making up 90%+ of prison population in pretty much any form of government or society. I haven't heard many feminists argue for a female quota in prisons yet.

Or workplace deaths, 10:1, or suicides 3.5:1 or higher.

Women attempt suicide two to four times more often than men. (However, men tend to use more violent, and effective, methods of suicide, so succeed more frequently than women.)

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#140

Post by b9a2cab5 »

dktoao wrote: post #132
finite_jest wrote: post #94

I think this is a good reminder that if you are male and live in a Western country, it is quite likely that you are being overtly discriminated against. It even has an Orwellian name: "affirmative action" [1]. Women may face other types of workplace discrimination, as the article also says, but when it comes to hiring and college admissions there is overt and (mostly) legal discrimination against men. This is support…

I see this hot take way too often and I take it that you didn't read any of your sources to see if they actually supported your claim. Because: [1] Yes, Wikipedia confirms that affirmative action is a thing societies across the world engage in it to try to have a representative cross section of the population engaged in critical aspects of society. And yes, in America since the practice became enshrined in law that m…

> have a representative cross section of the population engaged in critical aspects of society

I didn't realize making people click on ads was a critical aspect of society (FAANG firms use DEI tactics to preference URMs). Getting an undergrad education in engineering at a top school isn't a critical aspect either.

Instead of focusing on white men, why don't you take a look at the stats around Asian men? Or Asians in general? The Harvard affirmative action lawsuit revealed the extent to which affirmative action is a grossly discriminative policy that unreasonably raises admission standards for certain demographics to enforce a quota (and quotas are illegal according to the Supreme Court).

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