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Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

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Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#121

Post by bjourne »

I took a quick look at the comments on this article and I find it fascinating that almost every commenter accepts the study's conclusions at face value. Having been a HN reader for several years, I know how incredibly rare that is! The top voted comment is always something like "Correlation is not causation", "Yeah, but did the authors consider ?", or something about how the methods does not allow one to draw very far-reaching conclusions.

Even studies about gender or race discrimination always have the same kind of objections. Usually about how the purportedly discriminated against group isn't discriminated against but actually is objectively less competent and thus its worse outcome is "natural". For example, that there are fewer female than male tech entrepreneurs, I have been told, is because women are more risk-averse than men. The reason is absolutely not that investors are biased against female tech entrepreneurs.

However! In this discussion, no one has yet offered the hypothesis that the purported discrimination against men could be explained by men being objectively less suitable to work in female-dominated professions than women. Perhaps men have less "emotional iq" than women or something?

I find it very fascinating how the general take from a supposedly knowledgeable group of people (HN commentators) changes when the topic changes from "women are discriminated against" to "men are discriminated against"!

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#122

Post by lemoncookiechip »

While what I'm about to say is anecdotal, I think most people have experienced this, either themselves, or recounts from friends and family.

Things such as kindergarten, secretary, a lot of jobs where you interact with the public favor female employees over males, such as receptionists. Just to name a few.

>"There was no evidence of discrimination against women in male-dominated professions or in mixed-gender professions, but the researchers did find evidence of discrimination against men in female-dominated professions."

Again, anecdotal, but I've seen discrimination from places like the military, construction work, police work to name a few.

I don't think we needed a study to state the obvious, but I guess it helps creating more conversations about the topic.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#123

Post by stiltzkin »

finite_jest wrote: post #94

I think this is a good reminder that if you are male and live in a Western country, it is quite likely that you are being overtly discriminated against. It even has an Orwellian name: "affirmative action" [1]. Women may face other types of workplace discrimination, as the article also says, but when it comes to hiring and college admissions there is overt and (mostly) legal discrimination against men. This is support…

Seems the UK hiring without regard to their performance is illegal, is that the case in the UK?.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#124

Post by dathinab »

guerrilla wrote: post #108
Loughla wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most sex offenders are men, does not mean most men are sex offenders. Nor does it mean that most men who want to go into childcare are sex offenders. You're inferring results from faulty logic.

> Most sex offenders are men, does not mean most men are sex offenders I didn't argue it does. It does mean that men are riskier hires though (by whatever marginal percent.)

That's not how it works as:

Most sex offenders are not kindergarten teachers...

Most are family members or "friends of the family".

Also there is a strong bias leading to female sex offenders being much less often convicted (partially because they are also much less often reported).

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#125

Post by groby_b »

at_a_remove wrote: post #98
vanderZwan wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claiming that feminism does not talk about these issues is at best a sign of naivety about feminism and at worst being disingenuous. One may disagree with their conclusion that the origin of these problem also has to do with patriarchy, but to claim that these forms of suffering that disproportionately affect men are ignored by feminists is false.

Oh, usually when one corners them in a debate they will grudgingly mumble something about the draft, but find me a spontaneous protest that the draft only inducts men, or about circumcision! They can be badgered into it but they have no actual vigor for it. I did find the various -- when the idea that the draft would apply in the US to women -- responses of "This isn't the kind of equality I wanted" very amusing in a…

The draft is very low on most people's protest agenda because it's a coercive thing. Very few people will argue for more coercion, and especially not towards violence.

Meanwhile, women have fought long and hard to be accepted as equals in the (voluntary) military.

And you will find many supporters if instead the selective service, you'd support e.g a year of mandatory social service.

You'll also find support to abandon the draft. (it's a highly unnecessary measure in the face of a professional military). You might even find support to have an egalitarian draft if we move further away from a professional military and instead institute mandatory military service.

But "here's a really bad idea that disproportionality affects a specific group, we should double down to affect more groups negatively" just isn't a proposition appealing to many people - male or female.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#126

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

wonderwonder wrote: post #18
s7eu3b4u wrote: post #14

I interviewed at a hair salon once. The owner/manager was female as were all other employees. I'm a guy. Needless to say, I did not hear back. The owner told me during the interview that her clients are all females, mostly wealthy, with many 40-50 years old and she basically explained I would not fit in.

hmm, I have never really thought about it before but I don't think I have ever seen a single heterosexual male hairdresser in my life outside of a barbershop. Never really even registered I guess because that's how it has always been in my experience but interesting now that you mention it. I know there are a ton of male hairdressers just from going to barbershops. Wonder if they just gravitate towards barber shops o…

> I don't think I have ever seen a single heterosexual male hairdresser in my life outside of a barbershop.

You probably have, but many of them pretend to be gay professionally (source: my wife worked as a hair stylist for many years).

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#127

Post by xbar »

flerovium wrote: post #77

It's worth noting that Sweden falls on the far end of the political/social spectrum with respect to gender law and culture. EDIT: not sure why the downvote: being on the far end of a political spectrum isn't necessarily a bad thing. Citation: [1] [1] https://www.oecd.org/els/emp/last-mile-longest-gender-nordic...

Perhaps you were down-voted because this fact does not seem relevant.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#128

Post by Chris2048 »

donohoe wrote: post #36
wonderwonder wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would acknowledging that men are discriminated against minimize the concern for discrimination against women? Its ok to focus on more than 1 thing. Discrimination is wrong, never really understood the purpose of 'whataboutism'.

I am not saying that. But there are many (typically men's rights orgs) who seize on stories like this to say that 'enough is enough and truly it is us men who are being marginalized [in ways beyond what the article says]' and thats not at all true.

In other words, there are some MRAs that minimise discrimination against women, so you must do the same in opposition? Why not instead lend support to MRAs that don't do this, and attack all marginalization?

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#129

Post by groby_b »

laurent92 wrote: post #45
vanderZwan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same is true for the art world. Female dominated in every art school I know, male dominated at the well-paying end of the success spectrum. And I can safely say that I have not ever noticed any discrimination against male artists while studying it. Quite the contrary.

Men tend to work themselves to death in much higher frequency than women. Women benefit from social fabric when they are at the bottom, even homeless women are housed (at unfixed address) while men really are on the street. I’m of the impression that we can’t reduce gaps without introducing the threat of social declassment of women when they fail.

Did it occur to you that a better alternative is to provide a safety net for both men and women, instead of taking the response "if i can't have it, you can't either"?

Engaging in a race to the bottom, ensuring everybody is equally bad off, is maybe not the best strategy to ensure equal treatment. (yes, it works. It's just not very productive)

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#130

Post by newbamboo »

skulk wrote: post #111
finite_jest wrote: post #94

I think this is a good reminder that if you are male and live in a Western country, it is quite likely that you are being overtly discriminated against. It even has an Orwellian name: "affirmative action" [1]. Women may face other types of workplace discrimination, as the article also says, but when it comes to hiring and college admissions there is overt and (mostly) legal discrimination against men. This is support…

Under affirmative action is a hypothesis: that it reduces inequality among communities. Has the application of affirmative action been measured and compared to its outcomes? It's been a thing for about 50 years now, so I'd like to see some data.

I think that’s antiquated honestly. I don’t hear that justification given now, as it was decades ago. I hear more talk of “justice” and increasing diversity merely for its own sake rather than as a means to and end. Whereas the original intent was lowering the importance of race and sex in life outcomes, I don’t think anyone would espouse such a goal today. Being “color blind” has become a pejorative in the parlance of today. Wanting a color blind society, one where a persons sex is of little concern, is derided as the hallmark of racial and sexual privilege, something in need of reform. It’s hard to pinpoint where this change occur. Maybe it was doomed from the outset and racism to end racism doesn’t actually work.
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