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Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

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Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#111

Post by skulk »

finite_jest wrote: post #94

I think this is a good reminder that if you are male and live in a Western country, it is quite likely that you are being overtly discriminated against. It even has an Orwellian name: "affirmative action" [1]. Women may face other types of workplace discrimination, as the article also says, but when it comes to hiring and college admissions there is overt and (mostly) legal discrimination against men. This is support…

Under affirmative action is a hypothesis: that it reduces inequality among communities. Has the application of affirmative action been measured and compared to its outcomes? It's been a thing for about 50 years now, so I'd like to see some data.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#112

Post by ecshafer »

wonderwonder wrote: post #18
s7eu3b4u wrote: post #14

I interviewed at a hair salon once. The owner/manager was female as were all other employees. I'm a guy. Needless to say, I did not hear back. The owner told me during the interview that her clients are all females, mostly wealthy, with many 40-50 years old and she basically explained I would not fit in.

hmm, I have never really thought about it before but I don't think I have ever seen a single heterosexual male hairdresser in my life outside of a barbershop. Never really even registered I guess because that's how it has always been in my experience but interesting now that you mention it. I know there are a ton of male hairdressers just from going to barbershops. Wonder if they just gravitate towards barber shops o…

FWIW there is a difference in certification to be a hair dresser vs a barber in most states in the US. So one has to specifically choose to be a barber or a hair dresser when they go through said process.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#113

Post by Loughla »

crate_barre wrote: post #16

Humans gonna human. No one group is particularly more righteous, as much as the recent zeitgeist wants to lull us into this belief. Many people even believe that countries would be better off if mostly women ran it. Well, all you’d have is a bunch of corrupt women instead of a bunch of corrupt men.

This actually hits on an argument that I don't understand that is actively and currently happening around me.

I work in a place that is currently undergoing some diversity, equity, and inclusion education for staff.

One camp sees it as an attack on themselves. "I'm not racist, I can't be racist, I would never act like that."

One camp sees it as an opportunity to attack others. "My experience is that people like you are racist. My experience is that people like you treat me poorly."

I can't get the two parts of this argument to understand that ---literally every human stereotypes and uses those stereotypes to make decisions--- and that's okay, as long as you identify them, and work to NOT make decisions based solely on stereotypes.

There is no 'good' group or 'bad' group (outside of overt racists or something like that). Everyone sucks a little, but some groups have more power to turn their suck into policy. And everyone needs to know that to be able to try to fix it.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#114

Post by Chris2048 »

gambiting wrote: post #105
guerrilla wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about stealing but is it not the case that most sex offenders are men? That seems like an actual risk wherase the accusations at play in racism are just made up.

No, and absolutely not. That's the exact same argument used against black people in US("most prisoners in US are black[0], therefore it's not racist to be afraid of black people, it's clearly in the data!") You can spin it any way you want - majority of sexual abuse happens with family members, so actually leaving a child with a stranger is a lot safer, if all you care about is statistical data /s [0] https://www.pew…

> majority of sexual abuse happens with family members, so actually leaving a child with a stranger is a lot safer

This is the same argument used to argue planes are safer than cars, but there is a missing component: for individuals choosing which transport to take, they can evaluate the specifics of their case. If they know they are not a high-risk driver, the chance of dying in a car accident is much lower, but the chance of dying in a plane crash stays the same.

As such, for high-risk drivers, travelling by plane is safer, but possibly so is taking a taxi.

The choice here is between male or female carers all of which are non-family members, so it isn't a consideration.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#115

Post by bdamm »

skulk wrote: post #111
finite_jest wrote: post #94

I think this is a good reminder that if you are male and live in a Western country, it is quite likely that you are being overtly discriminated against. It even has an Orwellian name: "affirmative action" [1]. Women may face other types of workplace discrimination, as the article also says, but when it comes to hiring and college admissions there is overt and (mostly) legal discrimination against men. This is support…

Under affirmative action is a hypothesis: that it reduces inequality among communities. Has the application of affirmative action been measured and compared to its outcomes? It's been a thing for about 50 years now, so I'd like to see some data.

Didn't the Supreme Court of the United States rule that it had been effective, with their primary evidence being the election of Barak Obama?

That's not a study but in terms of legal doctrine it seems to be a settled issue.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#116

Post by dathinab »

guerrilla wrote: post #96
dTal wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like pretty standard out-group stigmatization that you also hear applied to immigrants, people of color etc...

I don't know about stealing but is it not the case that most sex offenders are men? That seems like an actual risk wherase the accusations at play in racism are just made up.

Besides what other comments pointed out there is another problem:

It's about convictions and about press reporting which are inherently influenced by bias.

For example some years ago a couple was found to be the main heads some child pornography ring. But while the press mentioned it was a couple they basically only reported about the man, not the women. There where no indications that the women was forced into it. But due to biased-conservative thinking the press treated the man as the sole responsible person...

Similar you will probably find many cases (with varying outcomes) against male kindergarten teachers because of pedophile actions in situations where no-one really can tell if a pedophile action was involved. But how many of this cases are their against woman?

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#117

Post by kkielhofner »

wonderwonder wrote: post #18
s7eu3b4u wrote: post #14

I interviewed at a hair salon once. The owner/manager was female as were all other employees. I'm a guy. Needless to say, I did not hear back. The owner told me during the interview that her clients are all females, mostly wealthy, with many 40-50 years old and she basically explained I would not fit in.

hmm, I have never really thought about it before but I don't think I have ever seen a single heterosexual male hairdresser in my life outside of a barbershop. Never really even registered I guess because that's how it has always been in my experience but interesting now that you mention it. I know there are a ton of male hairdressers just from going to barbershops. Wonder if they just gravitate towards barber shops o…

This entire comment thread is identical to a "King of the Hill" episode:

https://kingofthehill.fandom.com/wiki/My_Hair_Lady

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#118

Post by Chris2048 »

wonderwonder wrote: post #18
s7eu3b4u wrote: post #14

I interviewed at a hair salon once. The owner/manager was female as were all other employees. I'm a guy. Needless to say, I did not hear back. The owner told me during the interview that her clients are all females, mostly wealthy, with many 40-50 years old and she basically explained I would not fit in.

hmm, I have never really thought about it before but I don't think I have ever seen a single heterosexual male hairdresser in my life outside of a barbershop. Never really even registered I guess because that's how it has always been in my experience but interesting now that you mention it. I know there are a ton of male hairdressers just from going to barbershops. Wonder if they just gravitate towards barber shops o…

From my experience, there is such a big difference in style/culture of womens vs mens hair fashion that the respective hairdresser/barber business become v culturally differentiated - e.g. Hairdressers branching out into many other fashion items such as nails, pedicure etc; which barbers becoming v "manly" e.g. branded "manish" beard care products, sweary hip-hop music, offers of whisky/alcohol as you wait.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#119

Post by groby_b »

zeku wrote: post #91
endymi0n wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note the hypothesis about risk being a predominantly male trait is also consistent at the other end with men making up 90%+ of prison population in pretty much any form of government or society. I haven't heard many feminists argue for a female quota in prisons yet.

Your comment is the kind of comment we have to stop if we are going to actually be able to push mens rights issues. You're using divisive language with your second sentence and poison pilling the entire argument by attacking feminists. This doesn't have to be a feminist vs whatever war, it needs to be a conversation around male issues and we need everyone at the table to make things better.

Speaking as a feminist - spot on. Feminism isn't about just swapping gender roles and just giving power to women. (As much as Sheryl Sandberg seems to believe it is)

Which means that yes, the incarceration rates are (or should be, it's not like there's a feminist cabal I speak for;) concerning for feminists

Not in the sense that we should simply incarcerate not women, but in the sense that we should desperately look for the systemic issues that result in this outcome.

There's a good chance that a strong gender binary and an idea that it's somehow "men vs women" actively contributes. (E.g. because we stereotypically assign more social behavior to girls, and reward/excuse antisocial behavior in boys)

Trying to frame this as an either/or debate is directly detrimental to ever achieving equitable outcomes.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#120

Post by dathinab »

Chris2048 wrote: post #114
gambiting wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, and absolutely not. That's the exact same argument used against black people in US("most prisoners in US are black[0], therefore it's not racist to be afraid of black people, it's clearly in the data!") You can spin it any way you want - majority of sexual abuse happens with family members, so actually leaving a child with a stranger is a lot safer, if all you care about is statistical data /s [0] https://www.pew…

> majority of sexual abuse happens with family members, so actually leaving a child with a stranger is a lot safer This is the same argument used to argue planes are safer than cars, but there is a missing component: for individuals choosing which transport to take, they can evaluate the specifics of their case. If they know they are not a high-risk driver, the chance of dying in a car accident is much lower, but the…

> dying in a car accident is much lower

This is a super faulty argument as _a lot_ of death related to driving accidents are caused by other people.

If I look just in my environment all care related death have been caused by "other" people which some times but not always also died.

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