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Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

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Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#91

Post by zeku »

endymi0n wrote: post #58
lucaspm98 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One factor that may be contributing to this, especially in the art world, is survivorship bias driven by higher male risk tolerances. Men have much more boom or bust outcomes in their lives and careers due to lower risk aversion. What this could look like in the art world is a lower tendency than women towards a stable yet income-capped career like art teacher, and a higher tendency towards a risky yet unlimited pote…

Note the hypothesis about risk being a predominantly male trait is also consistent at the other end with men making up 90%+ of prison population in pretty much any form of government or society. I haven't heard many feminists argue for a female quota in prisons yet.

Your comment is the kind of comment we have to stop if we are going to actually be able to push mens rights issues.

You're using divisive language with your second sentence and poison pilling the entire argument by attacking feminists.

This doesn't have to be a feminist vs whatever war, it needs to be a conversation around male issues and we need everyone at the table to make things better.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#92

Post by HarryHirsch »

vanderZwan wrote: post #57
zwieback wrote: post #31

The article goes farther, saying: "There was no evidence of discrimination against women in male-dominated professions or in mixed-gender professions, but the researchers did find evidence of discrimination against men in female-dominated professions." Sweden, though.

More importantly: they looked at hiring practices . That's an extremely narrow view of the problem domain.

Not at all. If the employers let their pants down already at the interview stage, where everyone is at their best behaviour, it gets much worse down the line.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#93

Post by daenz »

johnchristopher wrote: post #79
daenz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do get your point, but leadership is sometimes unique in that it requires an individual to take the role.

Keyword being sometimes . Are we debating exceptions that contradict the existence of the problem at large ?

No, I'm confident there are gender-based biases. But the degree of the problem needs to be considered accurately, which means understanding all of the exceptions and how frequently they occur.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#94

Post by finite_jest »

I think this is a good reminder that if you are male and live in a Western country, it is quite likely that you are being overtly discriminated against. It even has an Orwellian name: "affirmative action" [1].

Women may face other types of workplace discrimination, as the article also says, but when it comes to hiring and college admissions there is overt and (mostly) legal discrimination against men. This is supported by data [2], procedure [3], and myriad anecdotes [4].

Some think this is necessary (even a moral imperative) for correcting historical injustices, but at the very least we should avoid gaslighting people and acknowledge in plain language that discrimination against men exists.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action

[2]: The Atlantic: Men Are the New College Minority https://archive.md/CrAxH

[3]: WSJ: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Men, Lawsuit Says https://archive.md/tl5lO

[4]: I personally know about a brother and sister applying to the same college, where the brother got rejected with a higher GPA while the sister got in.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#95

Post by guitarbill »

vanderZwan wrote: post #78
sundvor wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or workplace deaths, 10:1, or suicides 3.5:1 or higher.

Claiming that feminism does not talk about these issues is at best a sign of naivety about feminism and at worst being disingenuous. One may disagree with their conclusion that the origin of these problem also has to do with patriarchy, but to claim that these forms of suffering that disproportionately affect men are ignored by feminists is false.

You're obviously right, as "feminists" is way too broad (as is "patriarchy", really).

It's still unsatisfying at some level though. Reading left-leaning news (say the BBC), you're far more likely to read a story about desirable equality that doesn't mention the undesirable side. To be clear, I'm not opposed to equality at all. The discussion often just doesn't seem to be nuanced.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#96

Post by guerrilla »

dTal wrote: post #76
eckesicle wrote: post #64

Upon reading the headline I immediately wondered if childcare and cleaning were in the set of the female dominated careers. My hypothesis is that men are considered much much riskier hires for certain roles. The reason I thought of these two roles in particular is because socially I've often heard expressed worries that men in daycare are more likely to be sex offenders, and for cleaning I've often come across the se…

That sounds like pretty standard out-group stigmatization that you also hear applied to immigrants, people of color etc...

I don't know about stealing but is it not the case that most sex offenders are men? That seems like an actual risk wherase the accusations at play in racism are just made up.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#97

Post by fknorangesite »

OvidNaso wrote: post #88
vanderZwan wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claiming that feminism does not talk about these issues is at best a sign of naivety about feminism and at worst being disingenuous. One may disagree with their conclusion that the origin of these problem also has to do with patriarchy, but to claim that these forms of suffering that disproportionately affect men are ignored by feminists is false.

Can you link to any examples?

A quick google search gave me these:

https://thefeministshop.com/blogs/the-feminist-shop-blog/why...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/why-the-patriarchy-is...

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09589236.2018.15...

I'm sure someone with more time (or better yet: deeper familiarity with academic feminist analysis than I have) could find many more.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#98

Post by at_a_remove »

vanderZwan wrote: post #78
sundvor wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or workplace deaths, 10:1, or suicides 3.5:1 or higher.

Claiming that feminism does not talk about these issues is at best a sign of naivety about feminism and at worst being disingenuous. One may disagree with their conclusion that the origin of these problem also has to do with patriarchy, but to claim that these forms of suffering that disproportionately affect men are ignored by feminists is false.

Oh, usually when one corners them in a debate they will grudgingly mumble something about the draft, but find me a spontaneous protest that the draft only inducts men, or about circumcision! They can be badgered into it but they have no actual vigor for it. I did find the various -- when the idea that the draft would apply in the US to women -- responses of "This isn't the kind of equality I wanted" very amusing in a bitterly cynical way.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#99

Post by dokem »

guerrilla wrote: post #96
dTal wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like pretty standard out-group stigmatization that you also hear applied to immigrants, people of color etc...

I don't know about stealing but is it not the case that most sex offenders are men? That seems like an actual risk wherase the accusations at play in racism are just made up.

This comment is such a succinct example of doublethink.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#100

Post by benibela »

lucaspm98 wrote: post #40
vanderZwan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same is true for the art world. Female dominated in every art school I know, male dominated at the well-paying end of the success spectrum. And I can safely say that I have not ever noticed any discrimination against male artists while studying it. Quite the contrary.

One factor that may be contributing to this, especially in the art world, is survivorship bias driven by higher male risk tolerances. Men have much more boom or bust outcomes in their lives and careers due to lower risk aversion. What this could look like in the art world is a lower tendency than women towards a stable yet income-capped career like art teacher, and a higher tendency towards a risky yet unlimited pote…

That risk can backfire.

My parents were independent artists, but did not understand marketing. Now we have hundreds of artworks and no money.

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