If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect? • Hacker News Board

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#251

Post by bballant » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 3:03 AM UTC

CrLf wrote: post #85

wheels wrote: post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

Let me start by stating that you reply is somewhat of an example of HN-bias... The world of programming is vast. Larger than "America", larger than Sillicon Valley, larger than the world of startups, and certainly much larger than the "elite" that regularly reads (and comments on) HN and pats each other in the back. Even if we accept that programmers are well-paid and respected (two different propositions) in the tec…

I can only speak from my American experience, working as a software engineer for ~12 years in NYC. I am 33 years old--I never feel too old for this. My non-tech co-workers and engineering peers respect me very much. I love them back. We do awesome shit together. I solve hard problems and make beautiful software. I work hella hard but get paid well and I love every second of it. I am so glad I do what I do and when I read about people not being respected and not loving their work, I can only suggest that you do something else or do it somewhere else. The world is your oyster. Life is short. Carpe diem!!

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#252

Post by seri » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 3:20 AM UTC

mechanical_fish wrote: post #224

wh-uws wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineering, done right, is an invisible art... The objects become famous, not us. I think that is the exact type of thinking the thread starter wishes would change. Why is that the case? Why don't we exalt those who created such great things that we take for granted. And further more wouldn't we be better off as country if we did?

Why don't we exalt those who created such great things that we take for granted? Because there are too many of them. Look around you. The objects you can currently see or touch have been built though the effort of, literally, tens of thousands of people. My MacBook alone is the work of a small city's worth of designers, engineers, techs, modelers, miners, carpenters, accountants, physicists, chemists, machinists, arc…

  I disagree that our country would be a better place 
  if we all spent even more time blowing sunshine up 
  each other's butts.

I completely share your view. In fact, the software industry is a perfect one to be in if you want to enjoy life without having to make noise and conform to social norms. And while I personally like to have diversified relationships, the industry as a whole has a rich enough culture for us to be comfortable on our own.

In comparision, I love Mathematics, but the field is too narrow. I have heard stories about how investment bankers hate their crowds. And lawyers are always in stiff competition with one another. Looking from this perspective, the software community is similar to the designers' community. We share a lot and we genuinely like each other. Well, maybe that's a problem itself. We tend to form into cults and we are too ignorant with what else is going on in the world, hence we tend to be more socially awkward. But that's an internal problem and not an external one. We have to fix that individually.

However, while I don't think we should strive for more publicity and social status, not having enough cash can hurt. This is a real issue. In my country, on average, a programmer gets paid as much as an accountant, if not less. I know a lot of couples where the guy is a coder and the girl is an accountant, and they eventually had to break up partly because the girl is earning more.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#253

Post by mgkimsal » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 3:58 AM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #164

mgkimsal wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd taken to calling myself a 'digital garbageman' for a time, because that's essentially what I was. I had some corp jobs, and it was mostly cleaning up other peoples' code. I said it tongue-in-cheek, but I did feel that way, and eventually left corporate work to hang out my own shingle. This time around, I'm primarily solo, and sub out work to people to augment my time/skills. I've gotten much better about charging…

Certainly the 52-year-old developer all else being equal. Isn't this a complete no-brainer?

well, as a rule, so far, the 52-year-old developers don't get the jobs over the 22 year olds. That'll hopefully change as more of us get older though :)

My one other thought - way too late to the game here - is that many/most developers seem to choose their 'respect' in the form of free sodas, air hockey tables, nerf gun fights, flex time and other similarly frivolous/trivial 'perks'. It's not how I would choose to be respected, but it seems that's what enough developers seem to gravitate towards that it's set the perception of developers in the marketplace.

This is now how software developers are courted - "hey, this place has free sodas! and you can play ping pong!" Nothing wrong with those, but I'd rather take more cash. I a talked to a company about a position, and postponed, then came to them about 9 months later, and was offered $30k less than what we'd talked about before. I inquired about this rather massive discrepancy, and was told "we have free gym memberships, and all the free soda you can drink!". Tell you what... I'll buy my own sodas, drink fewer of them, not need the gym as much, and buy my own gym membership closer to my home with the extra $30k, thank you very much.

I'd also rather be able to come in, have people respect what I say, take my ideas seriously, and not have to deal with a load of internal politics on a daily basis. That tends to be the life of a contractor/consultant, and it suits me better.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#254

Post by tobych » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 5:38 AM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #253

sanderjd wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly the 52-year-old developer all else being equal. Isn't this a complete no-brainer?

well, as a rule, so far, the 52-year-old developers don't get the jobs over the 22 year olds. That'll hopefully change as more of us get older though :) My one other thought - way too late to the game here - is that many/most developers seem to choose their 'respect' in the form of free sodas, air hockey tables, nerf gun fights, flex time and other similarly frivolous/trivial 'perks'. It's not how I would choose to b…

Indeed. I'm a 41-year-old developer and have spent most of my career working in university research departments. Just a grown-up amongst grown-ups. I had an interview the other day with a start-up whose HR department and developer-interviewers insisted on talking about the "free lunches" they provide. I mean, when it came to question time for me they actually asked whether I wanted to know anything else about the lunches. By then they must have realised I couldn't give a shit. I was and still am just bemused by how this could possible attract anyone, of any age. I mean, do I look like an idiot? I'll make my own sandwiches and take the money instead please.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#255

Post by webrakadabra » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 7:38 AM UTC

fjordan wrote: post #195

webrakadabra wrote: post #88

Respect and money are two different things. Armed forces command great respect and little money. Doctors command good respect and earn good money. But Lawyers command little respect but earn lots of money. Doctors save lives, Soldiers defend lives, Lawyers win you lives, Teachers build lives. All of them impact lives, This is where respect comes from. And Software programmers ? They make software which at best speeds…

I say software programming is a support profession. Isn't medicine also a support profession? A good doctor will proactively prevent sickness and death, while most will deal with it as it happens.

when I say support proffession, I mean 'A proffession which supports other Proffessions'. I did not mean it as 'A proffession which supports lives or people'.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#256

Post by BerislavLopac » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 7:47 AM UTC

jbarmash wrote: post #246

mahyarm wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does medicine have the hazing ritual known as residency?

My wife is a physician, so let me chime in. It's not so much a hazing ritual but a very carefully constructed mentorship program. It's intense, and in some cases maybe overly so, but the goal is to immerse them into the environment, and to provide a lot of experience, while being carefully supervised by more experienced doctors. After three years of this, you come out really knowing you stuff. In software, we don't r…

Perhaps we will, once that software development has as much history and tradition as medicine does.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#257

Post by CrLf » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 9:40 AM UTC

Joeri wrote: post #228

CrLf wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me start by stating that you reply is somewhat of an example of HN-bias... The world of programming is vast. Larger than "America", larger than Sillicon Valley, larger than the world of startups, and certainly much larger than the "elite" that regularly reads (and comments on) HN and pats each other in the back. Even if we accept that programmers are well-paid and respected (two different propositions) in the tec…

"When the average corporate user spends most of his time in front of a computer, forced to use boring applications day-in and day-out, how do you think he feels about the people that build those applications?" The thing is that those apps don't have to be boring. Most apps are low-quality, in code and design, as a result of a management philosophy that considers developers as low-value. Apple is a good counter-exampl…

I say that corporate apps are boring whatever you do to make them less so. Corporate users don't use those apps because they want to, they use them because they must use them to perform their work. It's the obligation that's the killer.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#258

Post by Draconar » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 1:09 PM UTC

It strike me as odd that nobody here talked about happiness and about enjoying her job/work life. I read in some book from Dr. Martin E. P. Selligman that law is the profession in which people are more susceptible to depression and other mental health issues (statistically speaking). So much for your millions and society's appraisal, eh?

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#259

Post by hpguy » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 1:23 PM UTC

If everyone visits a restaurant every now and then, why don't waiters get any respect?

If everyone needs a house, why don't builders get any respect?

If everyone needs their streets clean, why don't cleaners get any respect?

If everyone's children need babysitting, why don't baby-sisters get any respect?

If you don't think you receive enough money and respect being a programmer, why don't you do s/t else, being a doctor or management consultant for example?

Why someone has to pay 500K for a job that s/he could hire a H1B person to do at 1/10th the rate?

Comparing job to job is like comparing orange to apple. Let the market decides how much software engineers should earn and are respected. If Adam Smith is correct, the market is pretty good at that.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#260

Post by mgkimsal » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 2:44 PM UTC

tobych wrote: post #254

mgkimsal wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, as a rule, so far, the 52-year-old developers don't get the jobs over the 22 year olds. That'll hopefully change as more of us get older though :) My one other thought - way too late to the game here - is that many/most developers seem to choose their 'respect' in the form of free sodas, air hockey tables, nerf gun fights, flex time and other similarly frivolous/trivial 'perks'. It's not how I would choose to b…

Indeed. I'm a 41-year-old developer and have spent most of my career working in university research departments. Just a grown-up amongst grown-ups. I had an interview the other day with a start-up whose HR department and developer-interviewers insisted on talking about the "free lunches" they provide. I mean, when it came to question time for me they actually asked whether I wanted to know anything else about the lun…

Exactly.

"TANSTAAFL" :)

Now, I'm not against free lunches. In a large enough group, I think it's a nice thing to offer - you get a variety of stuff you might not otherwise cook for yourself, communal eating is fun sometimes (not all the time), etc. But... as a stated 'benefit' that you know is being offered in lieu of extra cash... not sure that sways me.