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If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

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Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#81

Post by deleo »

mnutt wrote: post #47
deleo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that lawyers are overpaid, it's just that they don't compete with the world for prices and they all agree on certain prices in their own market. You can't outsource a lawyer to India because he most likely doesn't know US law. Also we programmer have this extraordinarily poor ability to SELL ourselves. We should try to factor in the time we bill the time it took us to get to that kind of knowledge we have, l…

There's no reason a lawyer in India couldn't learn US law. He probably wouldn't even start very far behind US citizen. The real problem is that he can't set foot in a US courtroom without a visa.

Yeah right, even a German lawyer could learn US law, except he wouldn't even be able to call himself a lawyer in US, cause even without the visa he couldn't practice the profession.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#82

Post by nirvana »

roel_v wrote: post #68
nirvana wrote: post #14

I think you make several excellent points, and I unexpectedly found myself agreeing with you. I thought $150k was a lot of money, but had never stopped to think about the fact that the other alumni of my school who became doctors are making far more. I think the reason we're seeing this is that programming has been commoditized quite successfully by an industry that saw they needed programmers but that did not know h…

"but had never stopped to think about the fact that the other alumni of my school who became doctors are making far more." A CS degree, which many programmers don't even have, takes 4 years. There are quite a few 'programming' jobs for which having a CS degree is being overqualified , but let's say that a CS degree is the baseline. To become an MD, with the specialties that pay the amounts mentioned here, one needs t…

I can only directly compare myself to the people I know. I know a couple lawyers, one judge, and several doctors, all who are alumni of the same school as I.

I'm more highly trained, and engage in more ongoing training than any of them. All of these professions involve ongoing training, though for lawyers and judges, once they get their degree the need drops dramatically. In fact, speaking of these people I know myself, they all have practices that are pretty routine with each case being very much like the others.

In my experience, as a software developer, I am constantly having to learn new areas of expertise. For instance, NoSQL has become relevant in recent years, and on previous jobs I had to learn the intricacies of fairly arcane businesses. My lawyer and doctor friends don't do this level of continuing education.

Also, you seem to be debating a point I'm not making. I never said it wasn't risky or expensive to go into those careers, in fact, that is part of the point I made: In both cases there are gateway organizations and laws that exclude people from the practice, preventing competition in salaries.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#83

Post by kristiandupont »

throwaway37 wrote: post #29
wheels wrote: post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

Firstly, if you disagree, that's fine. But saying my arguments are "entitled whining" isn't disagreement, it's name calling. DH0, to use Paul Graham's phrase. Secondly, some of my arguments might be wrong, but I provide numbers and evidence to back them up. "Likewise, programmers who define their goals economically (which broadly includes creating value for users) have nearly unparalleled earning potential." Evidence…

"Entitled whining" is a bit harsh I agree, but I have to say that my reaction was along those lines as well. What do you suggest be done about the situation? The abstract "respect" term is not very useful. The investment bankers that you mention make a lot of money but they don't have a lot of respect right now, at least for some definition of the word.

You could say that we deserve higher salaries but in my opinion the free market works perfectly there. And in fact, the same applies to respect. It's not something you can force, people respect those who earn their respect. It's not adjusted for IQ, skills, worked hours etc.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#84

Post by nirvana »

wheels wrote: post #75
throwaway37 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, if you disagree, that's fine. But saying my arguments are "entitled whining" isn't disagreement, it's name calling. DH0, to use Paul Graham's phrase. Secondly, some of my arguments might be wrong, but I provide numbers and evidence to back them up. "Likewise, programmers who define their goals economically (which broadly includes creating value for users) have nearly unparalleled earning potential." Evidence…

But saying my arguments are "entitled whining" isn't disagreement, it's name calling. Actually it's not. Name calling would be if I called you an entitled whiner. There's a difference between attacking your argument and attacking you. (And if we're sticking to the taxonomy, that part of my comment would be DH2, "responding to tone".) Evidence? That was the crux of my post. Programmers do get filthy rich (usually via…

Imagine if someone made the statement: "This is a tinfoil hat argument." Or, more directly: "This is an idiotic argument". How about "that argument is positively pedophiliac!"

Any time you take a pejorative term and apply it to the argument, it is always going to sound like you're applying it to there person. In most cases, that's the way it reads as well. It seems a way to engage in personal attack while being able to pretend to have only been characterizing the argument.

If you said "this argument has logical fallacy X because Y is Z" that would be a characterization of the argument of a totally different color. That would be addressing weaknesses in the argument, rather than anthropomorphizing it.

I have no opinion or position on your intentions, and presume that it wasn't your intention to characterize the person making the argument. I'm just trying to show why that form of characterizing the argument comes off as a personal attack.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#85

Post by CrLf »

wheels wrote: post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

Let me start by stating that you reply is somewhat of an example of HN-bias...

The world of programming is vast. Larger than "America", larger than Sillicon Valley, larger than the world of startups, and certainly much larger than the "elite" that regularly reads (and comments on) HN and pats each other in the back.

Even if we accept that programmers are well-paid and respected (two different propositions) in the technology sector, most programming jobs are _not_ in the technology sector, but spread throughout the corporate world. And corporate programmers are all but respected.

In your average company, a programmer is considered a glorified mechanic or janitor, a code-monkey if you will, well below the guys that "bring in the money" like sales and marketing. It is an expense, something that the company has to live with because someone has to implement the ideas that the guys in charge come up with to help the guys that "bring in the money" bring in more money.

Besides manufacturing, programmers are on the first line for outsourcing, and it is no coincidence that an expression such as "software factories" exists. Why do you think this is?

Most programmers will only actually _program_ for a few years before going into management positions. There are few "old" programmers around, and those that survive are often met with disdain. "What? You are 35 and still a programmer?" kind of disdain.

When the average corporate user spends most of his time in front of a computer, forced to use boring applications day-in and day-out, how do you think he feels about the people that build those applications?

And even outside the corporate world... If you are a doctor, or a lawyer, or a freakin' sales guy, people will listen to your stories, at least for a while. On the other hand, if you are a programmer and even start to talk about what you do for a living, people's eyes will glaze in boredom instantly.

Disclaimer: I am _not_ a programmer (I'm a sysadmin, which is mostly the same, although usually better respected because sysadmin positions tend to be longer-running inside companies).

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#86

Post by olalonde »

I think it all boils down to the fact there's no such thing as free market capitalism in America. All those well respected jobs you mentioned have special privileges provided by the government. Banking, finance, law, accounting and healthcare are heavily regulated industries. They don't have to compete with third world countries nor with Americans without the proper certifications.

Call me a libertarian, but I truly believe there lies the problem.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#87

Post by josepsanzcamp »

It's true and false for me. I think the main problem lies in ourselves. We must go around with their heads held high and announcing to the whole world: we are a programmer. The real problem is that we ourselves, the programmers, do not see the value of our work. Thanks to the doctors, people do not die and are cured of their diseases. Well, thanks to the programmers, computers can run programs, and increasingly, higher quality. I have programmers friends that his dream is an MBA or something else required to climb in the profession. To my mind, I think are wrong. They tell me that not want to be 50 years old and continuing with writting code. I differ from them because if I want to be 50 years and still write code. I understand that the first change require that we change our work perspective. It's needed to understand that programmer it's an inportant piece of the current society. Without programmers, a lot of companies die directly. The programmers, are currently working the lines of the future and they are the responsible of stablish and maintain the social status. It's important understand that only the programmers can do the programmer work and must appraise the done work. Until the programmers don't understand that programmer work it's important, serious, complex, with responsibility, that requires constantly study, then the society does not change the view of the programmers. It's our work demostrate the importance of our work, the value of our thoughts and our contributions to the society (as the doctor that cure the diseases).

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#88

Post by webrakadabra »

Respect and money are two different things. Armed forces command great respect and little money. Doctors command good respect and earn good money. But Lawyers command little respect but earn lots of money.

Doctors save lives, Soldiers defend lives, Lawyers win you lives, Teachers build lives. All of them impact lives, This is where respect comes from. And Software programmers ? They make software which at best speeds up, accurate up other primary professions. In that sense, Software programmer supports the other primary professions. I say software programming is a support profession.

And then money ? Money comes from the value provided by a profession to people’s lives. As of today, Software makes our lives easier but does not add much of a value to life as other primary professions do. Software profession helps but not create/add value to life by itself.

Even for a support profession, It takes time to mature and join the big league of primary professions. Software programming is relative new entrant in league of professions. It can wait until the day it will impact lives in a way we have not known before rather than helping already known ways !

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#89

Post by brain5ide »

thalur wrote: post #32
bignoggins wrote: post #18

I think one of the reasons programmers are not paid as much is that by and large, we are seen as interchangeable cogs. There are definitely exceptions, but I think the companies that think this way are large enough to set the market rate. For example, I used to work for a large defense company that probably had more software engineers than every startup in the world combined (we hired 10% of all CS graduates in the c…

"Programmers are interchangeable" seems to come up quite a lot, but I don't think we have a monopoly on it: celebrities (where it is the individual's brand that sells) are the only example that aren't interchangeable that comes to mind. One thing that may disadvantage us is that programmers are still one big blob: we don't define our specialities strongly enough to the outside world (or to ourselves). For example, te…

Funny you should mention that. I'm kinda doing both.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#90

Post by anonymoushn »

apetresc wrote: post #35
bignoggins wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

150K right out of school? I've never heard of anyone making that much in the valley, maybe 100K tops.

It's definitely not outside of the realm of possibility. I know several people at that level right out of university (undergrad)

How did they manage that? Is there some esoteric qualification that raises their value by 50-100% over other fresh graduates, or are they working at some company that happens to pay 50-100% more than Google and Facebook for fresh grads?
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