If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect? • Hacker News Board

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#181

Post by gjm11 » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:35 PM UTC

lisperforlife wrote: post #19

alsoathrowaway wrote: post #8

I think you're misrepresenting a few things, so I'll take a stab at it: 1. Senior software engineers at Google in Mountain View make over $200k all told. 2. Senior software engineer is in the middle of the Google ladder. The bulk of engineers at Google are senior level, so it's not special. The very best engineers make more. 3. You are vastly overstating the salary and difficulty of other fields. 3a. Doctor - You hav…

+1 for the 5th point. I had to read a few contracts and I was utterly convinced that I wasn't paying my lawyer enough as he had to read this horrible stuff every day.

What would your lawyer say if he read a few programs and contemplated the fact that you have to read that stuff every day?

I don't think legal language is as unpleasant to lawyers as it is to people without legal training and experience.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#182

Post by coliveira » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:39 PM UTC

baltcode wrote: post #118

One of the big reasons that lawyers and doctors make a lot more money is because they use regulation and the coercive power of the state for the benefit of their cartel. You are going to get a top of the line lawyer and pay through the nose because your business, freedom, even your life may depend on it. The number of lawyers and doctors is limited to an artificial shortage due to bar exams and number of residency sp…

I am not so sure that the free market does really offer what you're saying. For example, a big problem in have in the US is that a lot of smart people don't want to become programmers (for example, because they don't want to compete with programmers from India). But it is well known that the USA has more openings for programmers than available workers. So, it seems that the free market is not doing its job of moving more workers to the field.

Regulation would have the very beneficial side effect that salaries would increase, and therefore it would encourage lots of people to become trained in the IT industry. This would not have an adverse effect in the competitiveness of US companies. It is well known that salaries are just a small portion of the costs for major software companies. Moreover, salaries for programmers in the US are already way higher than in other nations, which doesn't seem to have had a negative influence in the results achieved by these companies.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#183

Post by falcolas » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:46 PM UTC

pkandathil wrote: post #154

bluekeybox wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many lawyers are partners in a big law firm out of the total number of lawyers? How many of these top management consultants clear $500,000? Even with doctors, to be solidly in the above $200,000 layer, you pretty much need your own practice established and smoothly running (with nurses, staff, and everything) -- not every M.D. out there has that, and the effort required to get there is equivalent to the effort…

Also guys, doctors are saving lives everyday. I would say as a programmer I do not have a that direct an impact on someone's life. I agree a doctor has to setup their own practice before they make that much money. They also go through a lot of school for a very long time. Comparing a programmer and doctor is not the same in my opinion.

Someone wrote the software for the equipment they use. I was recently at the hospital for surgery, and there were scant few pieces of equipment that didn't have some kind of programming in it.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#184

Post by wh-uws » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:48 PM UTC

mechanical_fish wrote: post #121

Quite a few good replies in this thread already. Let me just add a couple points: Engineering, done right, is an invisible art. Doctoring and lawyering done right are intensely personal activities, service businesses with one-on-one human attention. Good engineers fade into the background. Engineers make objects and the objects speak for themselves. You probably can't name the engineer who recorded and mixed the soun…

Engineering, done right, is an invisible art... The objects become famous, not us.

I think that is the exact type of thinking the thread starter wishes would change.

Why is that the case? Why don't we exalt those who created such great things that we take for granted.

And further more wouldn't we be better off as country if we did?

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#185

Post by drivingmenuts » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:50 PM UTC

cmhamill wrote: post #165

Spyro7 wrote: post #123

This is a fantastic post. It is well written, and I agree with many of the authors points. Far from being angry, I think that the majority of people reading here on HN actually appreciate this type of critical analysis, and I think that it is a shame that it had to be posted on a throwaway account. However, I would like to present some alternative viewpoints for a few of the issues brought up in this post. "As a doct…

I'd like to add another point to this: in the case of doctors, you've also got to include the various types of doctors. (As the son of a general practitioner, I'm particularly sensitive about this.) General practitioners make wildly less than the various specialists which abound in the medical profession. Now, GPs can certainly make a good living; in rich areas >$200,000 a year isn't uncommon. At the same time, for,…

I'll hazard a guess that specialists tend to see patients with specific insurance-covered issues, and those issues are the expensive ones. GPs deal with everything and not all of those ailments are worth much, billing-wise, yet take the same amount of time.

Or, 1 hour of a GPs time will usually result in a lower-return ailment than a Specialists 1 hour of time.

Or the problem of the Craftsman vs. Assembly-Line Worker. It may be better product, but you can't make 'em as fast. In this case, the Assembly Line people only deal with expensive items.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#186

Post by thematt » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:51 PM UTC

thomasgerbe wrote: post #135

Spyro7 wrote: post #123

This is a fantastic post. It is well written, and I agree with many of the authors points. Far from being angry, I think that the majority of people reading here on HN actually appreciate this type of critical analysis, and I think that it is a shame that it had to be posted on a throwaway account. However, I would like to present some alternative viewpoints for a few of the issues brought up in this post. "As a doct…

Funnily enough, many political representatives in China are engineers.

However, look at the age of those politicians (at least in China). They became engineers in the 60's and 70's when China still had a planned economy. They tested well in the national exams, which meant they likely went to an engineering school. Likewise, the fact that they tested well meant they were put on the political path. I wouldn't necessarily draw the conclusion that they are politicians because of some advantage an engineering background gave them, it's more likely the card they drew.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#187

Post by coliveira » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:58 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #93

shawnjan8 wrote: post #22

Dare I say it... but could part of the problem be a complete lack of unions? Not to suggest every programmer who wants a job needs to join a union, but AFAIK there are very little programming jobs which are part of a union. Here are some thoughts. The reason hockey players have agents is because the hockey players focus on playing hockey, while the agent focuses on understanding how much value the player brings to th…

Programmers do not seem to have this Sure we do. They're called recruiters, and they're paid a percentage of your starting salary as commission by the hiring organization.

No we don't. Recruiters do not represent workers, they're payed directly by the companies. Their goal is to hire as many qualified people for as little as they can. Sure, recruiters will tell you that they have your benefit in mind, which is partly true because they want the people they recruit to work out in the long term, but they never lose sight of whom they're representing.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#188

Post by wes-exp » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:59 PM UTC

shawnjan8 wrote: post #22

Dare I say it... but could part of the problem be a complete lack of unions? Not to suggest every programmer who wants a job needs to join a union, but AFAIK there are very little programming jobs which are part of a union. Here are some thoughts. The reason hockey players have agents is because the hockey players focus on playing hockey, while the agent focuses on understanding how much value the player brings to th…

This. Take for example the American Medical Association:

From Wikipedia: Economist Milton Friedman, [has] asserted that the organization acts as a guild and has attempted to increase physicians' wages and fees by influencing limitations on the supply of physicians and non-physician competition. In Free to Choose, Friedman said "the AMA has engaged in extensive litigation charging chiropractors and osteopathic physicians with the unlicensed practice of medicine, in an attempt to restrict them to as narrow an area as possible."

So AMA works to increase physicians' wages. Now let's think about what the ACM is doing:

- Trying to increase international membership. This benefits ACM in terms of dues, but I'm not really sure how it benefits members as programmers. If anything, it could hurt them. Don't we face enough international competition as it is?

- Promoting programming education as part of core curriculum in high school. WTF? Last thing I need is every dipshit who ever took a class thinking he can write software.

TL;DR: American Medical Association serves its members. ACM doesn't seem to help its professional programmer members whatsoever.

Edit: I suppose ACM is serving teachers on the above points? ACM has a lot of academic members. Maybe what's need is a separate programmer's association.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#189

Post by rcfox » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 4:09 PM UTC

bluekeybox wrote: post #158

pkandathil wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also guys, doctors are saving lives everyday. I would say as a programmer I do not have a that direct an impact on someone's life. I agree a doctor has to setup their own practice before they make that much money. They also go through a lot of school for a very long time. Comparing a programmer and doctor is not the same in my opinion.

> They also go through a lot of school for a very long time And that school is very expensive. Also, many highly-paid positions carry the risk of getting sued by the patient's side for having made a silly mistake (can happen to anyone) or even for things that were unavoidable but which the patient's side believes otherwise.

People should be paid according to the value they provide, not their need. (Correcting for basic necessities.)

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#190

Post by onemoreact » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 4:10 PM UTC

Spyro7 wrote: post #172

onemoreact wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there was really that vibrant of a bricklayer startup industry, then, due to agglomeration, you would expect there to be at least a few geographical areas where there was a high concentration of bricklaying startup business being conducted (think something like Wall Street). Wait, think about that for a second. There is a concentration of tech startups in SV because the internet lets them sell to the rest of the c…

"There is a concentration of tech startups in SV because the internet lets them sell to the rest of the country without issue." I don't think so. If the Internet was all that was needed to explain this concentration, then that would not be a sufficient explanation because it would prompt a new question. If geographical proximity was due to the Internet, then why Silicon Valley vs some other location? I think that it…

I agree with most of what you are saying. However, SV still generates a smaller fraction of millionaires than most people in the tech world might think. Around 200,000 Americans made over a million dollars last year and most of them took fewer risks than the classic raman profitable startup does. A tiny fraction of startups generate billionaires but when you start looking at expected payout and risk it's harder to justify as anything other than the best option based on your current skills.