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U.S. states file updated antitrust complaint against Google

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. states file updated antitrust complaint against Google

#41

Post by AnthonyMouse »

nverno wrote: post #28
djbusby wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? Do nothing and let the current monopoly get stronger?

I think it is a safe bet that there will always be new monopolies developing. There are always new markets, and benefits often don't scale linearly with growth. It's a complicated, error-prone business, trying to disrupt monopolies effectively in such a way that is actually beneficial to the community. If you think about it, the cost/benefit analysis is based largely on economic predictions which are never that accur…

> I think it is a safe bet that there will always be new monopolies developing. There are always new markets, and benefits often don't scale linearly with growth.

Find a monopoly and you'll probably find a regulation propping it up.

For many of these tech companies it's DMCA 1201 and other things that prohibit adversarial interoperability.

If you have a law that lets you boot competitors out of adjacent markets once you have dominance in one of them, you take over the other one too. Then nobody can compete with you unless they can replace you in both markets, meanwhile you enter a third.

The first thing we need is to get rid of such laws.

Re: U.S. states file updated antitrust complaint against Google

#42

Post by nverno »

robbedpeter wrote: post #39
nverno wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, they are concerned with economic impact, they do a whole in-depth economic cost/benefit analysis as part of determining if it's worth breaking up a monopolist. Whatever 'justice' means in this scenario seems highly subjective. If a monopolist was providing by far the best/cheapest goods and services, more people might prefer that scenario to an alternative competitive market with less benefit on average. I…

That sounds rational, but it's not. There's nobody, public or private sector, nobody at all that can make a real economic assessment of the value of a service line Facebook or Google. Those who claim otherwise are stupid, lying, or selling something. Markets and economics are unpredictable systems that have nothing to do with models of rational actors behaving in their own self interest. They're fundamentally extensi…

I think the difficulties/uncertainties you mention here are a large factor in the feds reluctance to break up monopolies. I have no personal opinion on these methods without taking a much deeper dive into the details. It does seem like the big breakup of Ma Bell worked out well, though.

The statement "everyone is accountable to the same rules to the same degree" could be either pro- or anti- federal action.

Re: U.S. states file updated antitrust complaint against Google

#43

Post by dillondoyle »

kaycebasques wrote: post #17

> The lawsuit also highlights Google's use of a secret program dubbed "Project Bernanke" in 2013 that used bidding data to give its own ad-buying an advantage. For example, in a 2015 iteration of the program, Google allegedly dropped the second-highest bids from publishers' auctions, accumulated money into a pool and then spent that money to inflate only the bids belonging advertisers who used the company's Google Ad…

I was going to ask the same thing. Also using some info from the WSJ comment below.

- WSJ: "Texas alleges that Google used its access to data from publishers’ ad servers—where more than 90% of large publishers use Google to sell their digital ad space—to guide advertisers toward the price they would have to bid to secure an ad placement."

- This is bid optimization & bid shading no? Both helping buyers place a high enough winning bid. And then also offering bid shading probable. With a second price auction the winning bid clear price is 2nd price + .01 or whatever. All DSPs offer this and use the open market data?

- Next WSJ graph seems like the crux of the insider trading is not really accurate? If all major bidding platforms (dsp's) offer this feature. e.g. it doesn't " unfairly compete against rival ad-buying tools and pay publishers less on its winning bids for ad inventory." ?

- "Google allegedly dropped the second-highest bids"

- So publishers still got paid the highest bid?

- Or maybe see above about bid shading. Maybe this could lower the clearing amount paid to the publisher? E.g. $10, $7, $5 bids. Drop $7, winning price is now $5.01 ?

- "accumulated money into a pool and then spent that money to inflate only the bids belonging advertisers who used the company's Google Ads"

- I don't understand this. The WSJ article also doesn't mention what money is pooled.

Re: U.S. states file updated antitrust complaint against Google

#44

Post by [deleted] »

Jerry2 wrote: post #9

I find it sad that all this is coming from state AGs and not from the DOJ and FTC. It just shows how corrupt our federal institutions are due to regulatory capture [1]. I still remember how Google escaped antitrust enforcement during the Obama presidency. There was a "revolving door" for Google execs and White House officials who would fill positions at both places [2]. When FTC prepared a massive report of Google's…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. states file updated antitrust complaint against Google

#45

Post by stemlord »

earthscienceman wrote: post #23
hellbannedguy wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During Obama it didn't seem like the problem it is today. I'm not saying it wasen't a problem, but America thought these FANG companies were solving our problems. I never liked Google Executives going to the White House, but I don't think it was because Obama sold out. Tech was very new. Google honestly wanted to help. It seemed like every young guy wanted to be Zuck. Hell even Zuck thought he could run for president…

You lived in a bubble, nobody wanted to be Zuck in my circles and he was mocked ruthlessly for how out of touch and selfish he was. His comment about becoming president was seen to reinforce that. Facebook was also widely seen as rapidly becoming the place for drama and vapid political commentary. This was ... college during 2008, so not exactly last year.

Same here, so many of us have been eagerly waiting for this bs to unfurl for a very long time now.

Re: U.S. states file updated antitrust complaint against Google

#46

Post by judge2020 »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #20

Google does not want documents produced to the DOJ to be shared with the state AGs. https://ia601404.us.archive.org/8/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.56... Judge Castel reminded them that they must produce those documents to the state AGs. https://ia601404.us.archive.org/8/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.56... Perhaps this team can benefit from the discovery conducted by the DOJ.

Can document discovery really be this sweeping? Or is this some sort of request where the plaintiff can review potential documents before those documents are submitted into discovery and argued on?

Re: U.S. states file updated antitrust complaint against Google

#47

Post by mhh__ »

t-3 wrote: post #18
dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upholding the law? Having a functioning market and economy perhaps? It's the government's job to regulate the market. Abusing your (near) monopoly position to drive out competition is illegal.

> Abusing your (near) monopoly position to drive out competition is illegal. Yes, but it happens so often with so little attention paid that stories like this more often make me think a politician is looking for election funding rather than trying to enforce the law.

Is that looking a gift horse in the mouth?

Re: U.S. states file updated antitrust complaint against Google

#48

Post by R0b0t1 »

kaycebasques wrote: post #16

Supposing substantial antitrust actions are taken against Big Tech, would that have any effect on rank-and-file salaries in software? Big Tech kinda sets the bar regarding salaries, no? When MSFT was hit with antitrust action did it have any effect like this? Or is it an apples/orange comparison?

Higher wages. More market competition.

Re: U.S. states file updated antitrust complaint against Google

#49

Post by nuclearnice3 »

dillondoyle wrote: post #43
kaycebasques wrote: post #17

> The lawsuit also highlights Google's use of a secret program dubbed "Project Bernanke" in 2013 that used bidding data to give its own ad-buying an advantage. For example, in a 2015 iteration of the program, Google allegedly dropped the second-highest bids from publishers' auctions, accumulated money into a pool and then spent that money to inflate only the bids belonging advertisers who used the company's Google Ad…

I was going to ask the same thing. Also using some info from the WSJ comment below. - WSJ: "Texas alleges that Google used its access to data from publishers’ ad servers—where more than 90% of large publishers use Google to sell their digital ad space—to guide advertisers toward the price they would have to bid to secure an ad placement." - This is bid optimization & bid shading no? Both helping buyers place a high e…

I don't fully understand the mechanics either, but one point of clarification that might help.

> - "Google allegedly dropped the second-highest bids" >> - So publishers still got paid the highest bid?

During the relevant period and until end of 2021, Google is running a second price auction. The highest bid wins and then pays the second highest bid.

Re: U.S. states file updated antitrust complaint against Google

#50

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

kaycebasques wrote: post #17

> The lawsuit also highlights Google's use of a secret program dubbed "Project Bernanke" in 2013 that used bidding data to give its own ad-buying an advantage. For example, in a 2015 iteration of the program, Google allegedly dropped the second-highest bids from publishers' auctions, accumulated money into a pool and then spent that money to inflate only the bids belonging advertisers who used the company's Google Ad…

See paras. 148-154

https://ia601404.us.archive.org/8/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.56...

There may be more details in the 3rd amended complaint that was just filed. Has anyone found a copy online.

It would be surprising if anyone could ELI5 the mechanics of Project Bernanke in a HN thread. If they could, the state AGs would probably like to hear from them. :)

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