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If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

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Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#191
post #110
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can get a new programmer who has had a 2 year degree in programming and 6 months of training on the specific technology up to speed in such a project in a week. And this is how crap code comes to be.

Sure, but it works well enough for many organizations. Very seldom is there a business case to be made for a beautifully architected, extensible, maintainable, useable (with useability testing etc) expense tracking application. Throw something together that works well enough to produce the output required and is integrated with other systems, write a 10-page manual that explains the input formats (because sane input…

> "Sure, but it works well enough for many organizations."

Which is to say: organizations derive such fantastic value from software, that even slow, buggy, late and over-budget projects, nor a parade of such projects, is enough to cause them to reconsider their approach.

Which is the answer to the original question.

Q: If software delivers so much value, why are programmers typically paid so little and treated so poorly?

A: Because even bad software delivers value far faster than most organizations can incorporate it and there's no shortage of bad programmers.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#192
post #62

I think one of the reasons programmers are not paid as much is that by and large, we are seen as interchangeable cogs. There are definitely exceptions, but I think the companies that think this way are large enough to set the market rate. For example, I used to work for a large defense company that probably had more software engineers than every startup in the world combined (we hired 10% of all CS graduates in the c…

The thing is that programmers largely are interchangeable. Of course, you are a special snowflake etc; but at the end, the majority of programmers do repeatable, simple work, e.g. writing line-of-business Java applications, maintenance work like adapting Cobol code to work with new tax rules, writing generic GUI's that work just well enough to justify the expense given that the app has only a few 10's or 100's of use…

Following that logic, most doctors and lawyers are also interchangeable for the most part. The majority of work in those fields is applying what you've been taught and trying not to screw it up.

And of course there are exceptions, but from what I've seen it seems like there are more opportunities for programmers to bring personal creativity to their work than doctors and lawyers, just because the field is less established and there are more open questions.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to add another point to this: in the case of doctors, you've also got to include the various types of doctors. (As the son of a general practitioner, I'm particularly sensitive about this.) General practitioners make wildly less than the various specialists which abound in the medical profession. Now, GPs can certainly make a good living; in rich areas >$200,000 a year isn't uncommon. At the same time, for,…

I'll hazard a guess that specialists tend to see patients with specific insurance-covered issues, and those issues are the expensive ones. GPs deal with everything and not all of those ailments are worth much, billing-wise, yet take the same amount of time. Or, 1 hour of a GPs time will usually result in a lower-return ailment than a Specialists 1 hour of time. Or the problem of the Craftsman vs. Assembly-Line Worker…

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Insurance really drives this, too: HMOs, especially, are constantly pushing for GPs to receive less and less for a given procedure. Combined with the role insurance companies play in (effectively) deciding what a patient does or doesn't "need,* insurance post-1990 has been trying very hard to convince doctors to do a worse job.

My father, for example, had a practice for over 20 years in a small, working and lower-middle class town. He was notorious for taking patients in late and for long waiting times. And everyone wanted to see him. He was also notorious, as it were, for consistently finding and correctly diagnosing issues that other doctors failed to find. He talked to patients about the health in detail, with physicals often taking an hour or more. He would "forget" to charge folks who he knew were struggling to make ends meet.

For over ten years, this worked fine. My family was, frankly, rich, with yearly salary approaching $200,000 dollars at times. Starting in the 1990s, my father ran into HMOs, head-on, if you will. Over the next ten years, his monthly salary consistently decreases until his overhead exceeded his revenue, and was forced out of private practice.

Now, my Dad might not have been the model of an efficient capitalist, but he was a damn fine doctor. I, at least, think it's a damn shame that we live in a world where that kind of care is systematically eradicated.

So, yes, I think it is that GPs deal with "less expensive" issues, but that's also because they deal with every issue. The goal of a medical system should be to avoid entirely expensive issues. The fact that specialists are employed frequently enough (i.e., demand is high enough) that their labor is worth so much is a systematic failing of the medical system.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#194
It's really hard to get rich in the world by following an easy path. All things considered (prerequisite education, initial debt, work hours, desirability of everyday work), the average cog-like computer programmer is somewhere close to the top.

If you want to make money, stop whining and go make it. Negotiate a better salary with your company. Find someone with a problem and solve it. Realize an inefficiency in the world and fix it. The people who make money and love life don't do it by lobbying.

Here's a secret: you don't have to have any education to make good money. My stepmother started breeding German Shepherds when I was a child. She now sells them for $2000+ each, for family pets (http://minternsgermanshepherds.com if you're interested). She didn't even finish high school. She now pays a couple teenagers to help with the laborious task of caring for dozens of dogs.

My brother turned down a pharmacy scholarship to join the Marines. By the time he finished his five year tour-of-duty, he had established himself in the field of performance diesel trucks. He's helping people make 7,200-pound trucks do 10-second quarter miles (think Fast and the Furious). He runs his own garage (http://dieseladdiction.com if you're interested). He gets there at 6 AM and doesn't leave until 5 PM or later. He's booking people a month out because his schedule is so full, and he just keeps raising his rates. He now has two guys working for him and will be looking to hire another soon.

By and large, the people who make lots of money do it by working really hard. They develop their expertise to a point where there are perhaps one or two competitors even close to their level. The product they provide is something that people want and are willing to pay money for. They grow their business beyond themselves and enable others to make a living, too.

I don't want to work that hard. I'm happy to be able to use my expertise to improve my stepmom's or my brother's business operations. I can build them websites, automate some of their clerical tasks, and otherwise support what they do. But I don't lose sight of the fact that they are the ones creating the value in the first place. They put in the hard work to make the lives of thousands of people better in some small way, and I just grease the gears.

People want great pets. People want fast trucks. People don't want computer programs, they want better lives. When programmers actually align themselves with something people want, they do just fine.

If we want to be able to clock in at 10 or 11 and leave by 6 or 7, to enjoy what we do, to avoid taking full ownership of the product, to be generally stress-free, to not take some fucking initiative, then no, sorry to tell you, we're not going to do better than a well-above-average salary. You don't get rich by being lazy.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#195

Respect and money are two different things. Armed forces command great respect and little money. Doctors command good respect and earn good money. But Lawyers command little respect but earn lots of money. Doctors save lives, Soldiers defend lives, Lawyers win you lives, Teachers build lives. All of them impact lives, This is where respect comes from. And Software programmers ? They make software which at best speeds…

I say software programming is a support profession.

Isn't medicine also a support profession? A good doctor will proactively prevent sickness and death, while most will deal with it as it happens.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#196
(Lots of great comments in this thread, on all sides of the issue. Bravo, HN!)

One thing to keep in mind when comparing programming to law and medicine: a high-school dropout can be an adequate programmer and earn a good living writing Rails (between 65k and 90k at start, depending on location). Most other high-end white collar jobs require extensive education. A physician has to put himself through college, pre-med, medical school, residency, possibly a fellowship, and only then commands a high income. A 30-year old orthopedic surgery resident making 45k probably isn't thrilled that he has another five years of indentured servitude before he can claim a serious income and start paying off 250k of medical school debt. Law school is similar. Using an MBA to switch careers into finance is similar.

In essence, programming jobs can trade off relatively high income early on for an income which maxes out in the late 20s or early 30s. Law and medicine start with much higher requirements, take much longer to spin up, but have much better-defined career paths leading to higher income.

Entry-level Wall Street jobs (I mean real Wall Street jobs, not IT) work a little differently, in that they do offer excellent income up front and a lucrative career path, but require a degree and high GPA from a top school to get in. So they aren't really representative of an opportunity which most people have.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be honest here. It's hard to define respect, but an overwhelming majority of parents would rather have their daughter marry a lawyer or a doctor, than a programmer. That right there gives you a strong indicator of society's take on the issue. I'm not arguing that programmers get no respect (they do pretty well among non-prestigious trades). I'm arguing that programmers are not perceived as belonging to the same…

It has nothing to do with respect. Parents in most cases do not understand technology, much less programming whereas they can understand what an attorney or doctor does. The lawyer can keep you out of jail. The doctor can keep you from dying. What the heck does a programmer do that's so important? Note - I'm a programmer. I'm just look at it from their position. Then again, I live in Silicon Valley. When I say I writ…

I concur with this sentiment. When I meet new people, and they ask me what I do and I say I 'make and market websites' they stop - chin drops - and they say 'wait... you MAKE websites?! Like you MAKE them? Give me your number'.

Sure, moms don't romanticize their kids becoming a programmer. However by people who understand what value you can bring, you are greatly respected - almost as if you are a magical being capable of things beyond mere mortals.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#199
post #192
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is that programmers largely are interchangeable. Of course, you are a special snowflake etc; but at the end, the majority of programmers do repeatable, simple work, e.g. writing line-of-business Java applications, maintenance work like adapting Cobol code to work with new tax rules, writing generic GUI's that work just well enough to justify the expense given that the app has only a few 10's or 100's of use…

Following that logic, most doctors and lawyers are also interchangeable for the most part. The majority of work in those fields is applying what you've been taught and trying not to screw it up. And of course there are exceptions, but from what I've seen it seems like there are more opportunities for programmers to bring personal creativity to their work than doctors and lawyers, just because the field is less establ…

Sure, they are. That's the way hospitals are managed here nowadays - you make an appointment with a doctor with specialization xyz, and you don't know until you show up who's going to be there. They read through your medical history a few minutes before they call you in, and that's that. Centralized medical history tracking through automation is quickly making being a doctor a lot more routine than most doctors would like it to be.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#200
post #47
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that lawyers are overpaid, it's just that they don't compete with the world for prices and they all agree on certain prices in their own market. You can't outsource a lawyer to India because he most likely doesn't know US law. Also we programmer have this extraordinarily poor ability to SELL ourselves. We should try to factor in the time we bill the time it took us to get to that kind of knowledge we have, l…

There's no reason a lawyer in India couldn't learn US law. He probably wouldn't even start very far behind US citizen. The real problem is that he can't set foot in a US courtroom without a visa.

There's an amount of legal work currently outsourced to India - things that can be legally outsourced, that is. Currently, the class of things that can be legally outsourced is small (research + writing + document review.)

random google survey:

http://www.pangea3.com/ http://sqglobalsolutions.com/ http://www.sunlexis.com/ http://legal-process-outsourcing.com/ http://www.legaleasesolutions.com/

Here's a list last updated in 2008: http://www.prismlegal.com/index.php?option=content&task=...

To me, this is indication that there's a flood being held back by legislation.

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