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Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

jacquesmattheij.com

191–200 of 626 posts

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#191
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that argument for forcing pedaling to me seems like a way of gatekeeping to keep something a little more "pure" without any actual reason.

On a cargo bike carrying children in a hilly area the throttle is nearly essentially to safely get going from a stop and then to have pedaling take over.

I don't understand this comment. There are tons of non e cargo bikes. Are you saying they're unsafe to use? You could simply walk the bike if the terrain is too steep.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are people that cheat and that install throttles so they can move without pedaling but that's a great way to get your vehicle confiscated. Note that this varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In the US e-bikes with throttles are legally classified as Class 2 electric bicycles and are generally legal for use in bicycle infrastructure as long as they don't exceed 20 MPH. FYI, the US classes are as follows:…

I'm not in the US.

I don't think you need to defend yourself so vigorously in this thread. But I would say that what you're seeing is distinctly the American experience with e-bikes and bike enforcement.

Americans are generally clueless about e-bike laws. This includes police and e-bike owners. American e-bikes are marketed as having throttles, being to bypass traffic at high speeds using the bike lanes and bike paths, and not needing licensing/registration. As an analog cyclist, my experience is that e-bikers jump the lines at red lights, sometimes shoving you out of the way. With the bulk of my cargo bike, they sometimes instead jump around me on the sidewalk instead, which is kind of funny-terrifying to watch with their heavy bikes. On bike paths, e-bikes stand out for their high speed in crowds and you wonder if the "assist" from the motor is a binary on/off.

If all bikes were given more room and more consideration from drivers, this may not even be a real problem as each type would be able to spread out. But the infrastructure is pretty poor and police enforcement against drivers is even worse. So all the "alt transportation" people need to cram together in whatever meager space was won at the last road reconstruction meeting. E-bikes look great for converting drivers to bikes so no one wants to talk about banning them. But they also end up keeping their car driver mentality of me-first and objectifying everything else on the road around them.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#193
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it matter from a safety perspective if the locomotion is powered by a motor or a combination of a motor plus someone's legs? (Or if it doesn't matter from a safety perspective, what's the practical need to legislate against it?)

It's not the safety perspective that drives the legislation, but trying to create meaningful classes of vehicles that then can be used to drive safety. The classification comes first. And s-pedelecs are a bit of a weird in-between thing. From a technical perspective a bike, from a speed perspective potentially as fast as a scooter (but rarely so in practice), a bit faster than a normal bike or e-bike and a lot lighte…

Why would classification come first? That's entirely backwards. Surely we should understand what characteristics of a vehicle make it safe or unsafe, and then build the classifications around that to legislate against.

If both are the same safety, why make one illegal? It seems like a law which restricts liberty for no reason (other than legislative convenience, or because 'the government decided to tie it in with pedalling because they decided to').

It seems like the argument is 'bikes with pedals which can be powered with a button can never be classified as bikes because existing laws say that they are not classified as bikes'.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#194
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see the two as totally different things: I've tried pedal-assist e-bike and they're great. But... Although I have nothing against motorbikes I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free pass because they're disguised as bicycles. Eh, it depends if you see pedal assistance being the defining difference between a bike and a motorbike. From a safety perspective, speed may be a better differentiator.

Speed (or better, momentum) is important. But pedal assistance is definitely material to me. Switching from pedal-assist to throttle-controlled changes the proportionality between impulse and real-world results. As a kid my first response to pretty much anything with a dial was to turn it up all the way and see what happened. That's a behavior I saw quite a bit during the brief plague of VC-funded scooters: novices a…

E bikes also have a dial, all it does is it limits the speed when it stops accelerating. You can dial the bike all the way up, peddle but not apply any force and still accelerate to top speed.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s an order of magnitude between a 2 ton vehicle and a 250 pound vehicle+rider. Cars also have huge blind spots and if a bike rider gets in an accident, it’s usually very painful for them too, so their incentives to avoid accidents are quite high.

Okay, then take away the blind spots and some of the mass and ask the same question— why don't we allow motorcycles to drive on the sidewalk or multiuse paths assuming they pinky swear to always go really slowly?

Seriously? 1. Motorbikes weigh at least 10 times as much as bicycles, and can't be picked up any moved around by the rider 2. Motorbikes are much wider than bicycles 3. Motorbikes can accelerate much faster than bicycles 4. Motorbikes emit noise and exhaust fumes 5. Motorbikes have a much larger turning radius than bicycles 6. Motorbikes are capable of keeping up with cars and therefore have no need to be on bike lanes.

Probably a lot more reasons as well.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#196
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so that riders don't just cruise at that speed. Do you actually ride bikes on roads? This is there because if you're going slow on an actual road you're more likely to get killed because of a car hitting you. I'm honestly exhausted at this FUD when it's actively fucking with my life as a bike rider on a main road. Even Netherlands allows fully motorized vehicles that are small on their bike paths. Stop thinking of…

The OP, jacquesm, just mentioned throttle-only ebikes are not legal in the Netherlands. Anyone who's comparing ebike speeds to rider speeds: most people new to riding bikes cannot sustain riding at 30kph (18.5mph) for probably more than 5 minutes, less if there's any gradual elevation. As such, bikes are "safe" because there's an inherent speed limiter. You pedal really fast, go fast, then you get tired and chill out…

> If folks want to go faster, then do it on the street. If you want to rip the throttle wide open, don't do it where a child is learning how to ride their bike or where people are just enjoying a leisurely stroll

Agreed, but this is also leading to problems: people on racing bikes, especially in groups that occupy the whole width of the bike path.

In general the problem is much simpler: people should treat the roads like a commons and adapt to the slowest present user. That's the safest way, and if that means you'll be a little later at your destination then maybe you should have left a little earlier. And on a racing bike you are no better than any other cyclist, ditto for e-bikes and s-pedelecs. It's a shared resource and a bit of common sense and respect for each other goes a long way.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#197
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Although I have nothing against motorbikes I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free pass because they're disguised as bicycles. A free pass for what ? You dont need a motor to reach 40kph on a bike, plenty of people can do it with only their legs. What we can do is limit the speed on bike lanes, but that means we could allow any vehicule on it. There is no reason a motorbike couldn't go on a bik…

Speed limit on bike lanes in the city is 30 kph, outside it is 45. So those rules already exist (here, in NL).

What is the max speed of the bike you made jacquesm? I note from the start of the article that low speed of alternatives was one of your motivations. I saw the range stats in the last paragraph but didn't notice speed stats (perhaps I missed that?)

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the speed of motorcycles without the sound awareness, what could possibly go wrong? My overall experience is that E-bike riders generally have decent cycling manners, it's the scooter and unicycle riders that seem to think they can just crank their walking speed up to 30mph and go everywhere a pedestrian would. I usually just give them a firm "heads up next time" when I get buzzed by an electric motor whine at 20…

I used to ride a motorcycle, now I have an ebike. They seem equally safe to me, which is to say neither are safe at all if there are other people on the road. The only solution is extremely defensive driving/riding, assume no one (including pedestrians) can see you. This attitude has been embedded deeply in the motorcycle culture and is the best way to all-around responsible riders -- and it needs to be propagated to…

> assume no one (including pedestrians) can see you

Exactly. I'm in the same situation. I used to ride a motorcycle (that I still own but almost never use now) and am on an ebike every day.

It's not about "assuming" no on "can" see you: it's that nobody does see you, and nobody cares.

It's also the fact that people don't think about your speed or your ability to slow down fast -- they only care about your general volume. People will be more careful around a big parked truck than when faced with a small barrel rolling down a hill at full speed.

The way to stay alive is to be able to predict what everyone is about to do. I think I have become quite good at this, although one is always learning.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the USA the situation is much more risky than here. I don't like riding in traffic mostly because drivers tend to have a short fuse for anything that isn't exactly at the limit, but on bike paths everything works just fine. The problem is that s-pedelecs are technically lumped in with the scooters, even though there is no throttle and there is absolutely no way you are going to sustain 40 Kph+ for anything but a v…

I have an e-bike and I disagree with your assertions. I'm a fat asthmatic and I have absolutely no problem maintaining 40kph for long stretches of time on my bike. The fastest I've done on it (on a large hill but still) is 42.7MPH (~68Kph). Average cruising speed on flat land can easily be 30-33mph(48-53kph). Not all e-bikes are capable of this, but they are certainly not some kind of rare expensive impossibility - m…

I'm not sure why you would assume the author is being disingenuous. Your bike is almost certainly very different from the author's, and a more powerful motor is going to get you faster.

Fun fact/side note - power requirements generally scale with the cube of speed due to rapidly increasing air drag, so going at 50km/h is much harder (and requires a much stronger motor) than going at 30km/h.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#200
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free pass because they're disguised as bicycles. As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists, they're still a big win in terms of transportation: way less carbon usage and occupies less space.

As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists And if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass when it hops. "Other cyclists"? They're not cyclists, they're motorcycle riders, for starters. Now any jackass can zoom down the bike path at 25-30mph, but yeah, as long as that doesn't cause problems...

I worry more about the added mass of the e-bikes in the case of a collision with a pedestrian, another cyclist, or a traditional motor vehicle. Potential speeds are relatively the same.

I own and frequently ride e-bike, and am an advocate. That being said, operating one should be done responsibly.

Perhaps your comment could inspire some useful discourse if it were worded less negatively?

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