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Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#181

Post by jacquesm »

nybble41 wrote: post #162
jacquesm wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is mine. And that's the context in which you can read my comments.

I realize the article is yours, but you responded as if you were talking about all pedal-assist electric bikes (as the comment you replied to undoubtedly was), not just your particular model.

Read again: the claim is that these bikes can be hacked. Believe me I tried and reverse engineering is not something that I have a moral block against or so.

Every s-pedelec that I'm aware of is legal to buy and drive on the roads here is locked down. The Bosch system is the one that I now have extensive experience with and the handshake between the controller, the motor and then battery is of a complexity level that I have not managed to crack it despite a serious effort in that direction. Time will tell if I will eventually manage to run my own firmware but right now I'm not hopeful that that will ever happen (I'd love to update the range computation algorithm).

Regular e-bikes (the 25 kph version) are hacked with abandon but even then you are no longer legal (here, in NL and many other european countries). The Bosch system (which has substantial market share in that domain) can be hacked but only at the sensor level, and it's clever enough that it tries to detect such trickery and if it does it will brick itself. The factory diagnostic software contains a field for 'cheat detected' and it's pretty sensitive (to the point that sometimes bikes that have not been modified get flagged).

If you get a supermarket Bafang or other bike, especially older models then you are likely going to be able to hack it, but there too you won't find any s-pedelecs.

The few brands that sell them are all pretty good at locking down their stuff. Build a bike from parts and it's a different story, but then you won't get a license plate, type approval or insurance and your bike won't be legal to drive on the roads.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#182

Post by mikepurvis »

iambateman wrote: post #142
mikepurvis wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a certain point, you've added enough extra mass to the vehicle in terms of batteries, motor, beefed up brakes and frame, etc that you need to start asking questions about how much kinetic energy it's carrying and what happens to it all in case of a crash. Silly comparison, but we wouldn't let a car drive on the sidewalk even if it had a special module that limited it to 5km/h.

There’s an order of magnitude between a 2 ton vehicle and a 250 pound vehicle+rider. Cars also have huge blind spots and if a bike rider gets in an accident, it’s usually very painful for them too, so their incentives to avoid accidents are quite high.

Okay, then take away the blind spots and some of the mass and ask the same question— why don't we allow motorcycles to drive on the sidewalk or multiuse paths assuming they pinky swear to always go really slowly?

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#183

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

pcwalton wrote: post #105
jacquesm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pedal assist e-bike. There are people that cheat and that install throttles so they can move without pedaling but that's a great way to get your vehicle confiscated. A typical ride has me providing 40 to 60% of the Joules and the remainder comes out of the battery. If there is a very heavy wind up (not rare here) that might drop to 30/70 and if I have a tailwind it is the reverse. The bike has a nice stats…

> There are people that cheat and that install throttles so they can move without pedaling but that's a great way to get your vehicle confiscated. Note that this varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In the US e-bikes with throttles are legally classified as Class 2 electric bicycles and are generally legal for use in bicycle infrastructure as long as they don't exceed 20 MPH. FYI, the US classes are as follows:…

NY only allows pedal assist. In NYC they will crack down on electric motorcycles using the paths but ignore the delivery guys.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#184

Post by tgraham »

Great article. Bosch seems to be the go to for most electric bikes sold in london. My experience so far is OK; school run replacement has been brilliant. The range estimation is ridiculously bad! I find the battery bars are better estimator.

I this spurs on more entrants or drives more features. Recharging feels too frequent. There's no feedback on 'driving' style and impact on range. I'd love regenerative breaking. Silly things like a clock on the control pane would be hugely useful options.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#185

Post by dylan604 »

mikestew wrote: post #107
davidw wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free pass because they're disguised as bicycles. As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists, they're still a big win in terms of transportation: way less carbon usage and occupies less space.

As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists And if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass when it hops. "Other cyclists"? They're not cyclists, they're motorcycle riders, for starters. Now any jackass can zoom down the bike path at 25-30mph, but yeah, as long as that doesn't cause problems...

You realize it is not hard for a cyclist to hit 25-30mph without motor assist, right?

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#186

Post by dylan604 »

mdp2021 wrote: post #130
mikestew wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists And if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass when it hops. "Other cyclists"? They're not cyclists, they're motorcycle riders, for starters. Now any jackass can zoom down the bike path at 25-30mph, but yeah, as long as that doesn't cause problems...

You are strongly suggesting it yourself, that if not for the speed the difference would be negligible. The other factor dividing the two realms in practice is control: in a bicycle the speed is directly a function of leg activity: does the "legs independent" motor-bicycle offer the basically same degree of control?

In pedal assist mode, the motor stops when you stop pedaling. So it is the same concept. In full throttle only control, obviously it is not even the same.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#187

Post by jacquesm »

polote wrote: post #151
TacticalCoder wrote: post #27

We really need a terminology to differentiate better between pedal-assist only e-bikes ("pedelec") and electric motorbikes. A "bicycle" that can accelerate without the need to pedal at all is an electric motorcycle, no matter if you put pedal on it or not. I see the two as totally different things: I've tried pedal-assist e-bike and they're great. But... Although I have nothing against motorbikes I'm not cool at all…

> Although I have nothing against motorbikes I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free pass because they're disguised as bicycles. A free pass for what ? You dont need a motor to reach 40kph on a bike, plenty of people can do it with only their legs. What we can do is limit the speed on bike lanes, but that means we could allow any vehicule on it. There is no reason a motorbike couldn't go on a bik…

Speed limit on bike lanes in the city is 30 kph, outside it is 45. So those rules already exist (here, in NL).

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#188

Post by gglanzani »

jacquesm wrote: post #14
nousermane wrote: post #11

> S-Pedelec (...) top speed 45 kph (...) in many places you are forced to ride in traffic Yes. This is the way. Thank you, Dutch government. If somebody feels like wheezing an almost completely silent 200kg projectile, godspeed. But please gtfo from the urban bike paths, if at all possible.

It weighs half that, including me, and the average speed over a longer trip is about 33 to 35 Kph. In cities you ride just as fast as the rest of the bike traffic, there isn't any point in trying to go faster, and top speed is rarely achieved, you'd need a 100% full battery and a rider in very good condition. More usual you'll be around 35 to 38 kph in open country where there is very little other traffic. My 'commut…

Using my Stromer ST1X — which lacks the top of the line motor of the ST3 and ST5 — I can bike at 45kph at any battery % above 30.

I am probably 140kg with bike, battery, laptop, clothes, and stuff.

Outside the cities I can go in the bike lane, and I am absolutely twice as fast as most bikes.

I live in the Netherlands, so everything being flat helps.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#189

Post by groone »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #27

We really need a terminology to differentiate better between pedal-assist only e-bikes ("pedelec") and electric motorbikes. A "bicycle" that can accelerate without the need to pedal at all is an electric motorcycle, no matter if you put pedal on it or not. I see the two as totally different things: I've tried pedal-assist e-bike and they're great. But... Although I have nothing against motorbikes I'm not cool at all…

In my opinion the throttled e-bikes should be treated as bicycles as long as they have pedals and are under 25kg and 250W power.

That would legalize my e-bike that I have used for 14000km in city saving a lot of carbon emissions and not sacrificing much as I can park it in bicycle stand.

Of course going faster than 20-25km/h in pedestrian traffic (where bicycles are allowed) is extremely dangerous. But from my experience going fast in car traffic 35-40 km/h (where bicycles are allowed) is safer than chugging along slowly as cars don't have a need for overtaking between traffic lights.

Re: Show HN: Long Range E-Bike

#190

Post by user_7832 »

I have a question for the author - what safety precautions do you take against theft for such an e-bike, especially when going to public places like supermarkets? I recently came to the Netherlands and have heard that bike theft is common, especially for expensive bikes. I would guess that such an e-bike would be an attractive target, so do you take additional precautions when parking in public places (like 2/3/4 locks), or simply not park in public places at all?
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