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Elite Underproduction

troynikov.io

271–280 of 297 posts

Re: Elite Underproduction

#271
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's always a time gap. Remember that from the first public microwave demonstrations in 01895 by Bose to the first deployments (as radar in the 01940s) took 45 years; the Amana Radarange brought microwaves into people's homes in 01967, another 27 years later; and microwave ovens didn't really go mainstream until about 01990, another 23 years after that , 95 years after Bose's first public demonstrations. The LASER…

Yes, but those new discoveries are less fundamental. One of the reasons we had such an explosion of new theoretical physics in the first half of the 20th century (which gave birth to all the practical discoveries you mentioned) is that, in 1900, there was just so much unexplained weird shit . Shit like: 1. How do you predict the energy of electrons produced by shining light on a surface? And why does light cause elec…

Less fundamental than transistors? How much less fundamental can you get? There were no transistors floating around in the asteroid belt. Unlike, say, fission reactors, no natural transistor has ever been found.

There's a lot of unexplained weird shit today, too, including the arrow of time, turbulence, dark matter, dark energy, "tuning" of physical constants, solar flares, extreme-energy cosmic rays, ball lightning, the unresolved inconsistency between quantum mechanics and special relativity, structures up to the edge of greatness like the Sloan Wall, the bizarrely low-entropy state the universe began in, and consciousness. Short gamma-ray bursts were finally explained in 02017 thanks to LIGO. (The explanation had been hypothesized previously, but Lucretius correctly hypothesized the explanation for Brownian motion, too, 2080 years ago.) You may be interested in my longer overview in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29144119.

Your list of 6 weird turds unexplained in 01900 is mostly correct, except that #6 was correctly explained by Rayleigh in terms of Maxwellian electrodynamics in 01881, and Fizeau correctly explained the redshift of stellar spectra in terms of the Doppler effect in 01848, though of course not the spectra themselves. We could add, "Why is the Andromeda Nebula's spectrum so smeared out?" (leading to the Shapley-Curtis Great Debate in 01920), "How can the Earth be older than the Sun?", and "What powers Becquerel's uranium rays?"

The quote from Kelvin in this thread turns out to be incorrect (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/William_Thomson#Misattributed https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/science/physics/lord-kelvin-...) but Albert Michelson did make just such a claim in 01894:

While it is never safe to affirm that the future of Physical Science has no marvels in store even more astonishing than those of the past, it seems probable that most of the grand underlying principles have been firmly established and that further advances are to be sought chiefly in the rigorous application of these principles to all the phenomena which come under our notice. It is here that the science of measurement shows its importance — where quantitative work is more to be desired than qualitative work. An eminent physicist remarked that the future truths of physical science are to be looked for in the sixth place of decimals.

The curious thing is that Michelson in 01894 already knew about at least four of your five weird pieces of shit (the Schottky diode had been discovered but was not yet well known), as well as numerous others. In fact, he was personally responsible for discovering #2 in 01887.

So how could even Michelson make such a grievous error, the same error you're making now?

Well, I guess he underestimated the importance of the pieces of shit that were unexplained.

However, I think that error is less understandable today, though, since among the things we know we know virtually nothing about are the nature of 95% of the mass in the universe and the bulk dynamics of plasma, the state of matter in which we see 99% of the remaining 5%.

There's still the question of whose coattails we'll be riding in 100 years, assuming we somehow manage to survive. The Nobel Prize is imperfect and backward-looking by nature, but it suggests Ghez and Gensel for discovering Sagittarius A*, Penrose for black hole robustness, Mayor and Queloz for discovering exoplanets, Peebles for physical cosmology stuff including dark matter, Mourou and Strickland for petawatt lasers by chirped pulse amplification, Ashkin for optical tweezers, Barish and Thorne and Weiss for LIGO, Thouless and Haldane and Kosterlitz for topological order in matter, Kajita and McDonald for neutrino oscillations, Nakamarua and Amano and Akasaki for blue LEDs, and Higgs and Englert for explaining why things have mass. Those coattails doesn't seem obviously worse than the list from the corresponding years 100 years earlier: Guillaume for invar, Stark for spectral line splitting, Planck for quantum physics, Barkla for X-ray spectroscopy, the Braggs and Laue for X-ray diffraction, and Onnes for liquid helium.

But you don't yet know, for example, the significance of optical tweezers for submicron 3-D fabrication, of dark matter for interstellar propulsion, or of topological phase transitions for sustaining life in the Degenerate Era. (Of course I don't know them either; I'm not a time traveler.) NOVA hasn't even made an episode about topological order yet, so you don't yet understand that today's physics advances are fully as important as those of a century ago.

Consider the innovations evident in The Atlantic in November 01921: https://archive.org/details/walpolebeauty00beck. The Victrola (Edison, 01877), tires with anti-skid treads (Dunlop and Continental, 01904), chemical weapons (book review of "The Next War", p. 10; in theory Playfair's cacodyl cyanide, 01854, but more realistically the Hague Convention in 01899, and then massively in 01914), air war, pewter, eugenics, silk lampshades, the electric chair, aeronautics (not yet understood theoretically, so we have to credit the Wrights, 01903), Haldane's metaphysical speculations about "relativity", automobiles (arguably the Oshkosh steam car in 01878, the Flocken Electrowagen in 01888, or the second Marcus car in 01875), motion pictures (Muybridge, 01878, or Anschütz, 01894, or Le Prince, 01886, or Dickson and Edison, 01891-4), thermostats from the Minneapolis Heat Regulator Co. (Drebbel, 01620), clamp-on electric lamps (based on Edison's 1880s designs), personalized pencils with erasers (Lipman, 01858), Smith-Corona portable typewriters ("seniors' theses MUST be typewritten") (Rose, 01906), prenatal clinics, the welfare state ("if we can tax so heavily for purposes of war without raising a protest...", "The taking over by towns and states...of the responsibility for the care and prevention of tuberculosis...meant..."), kindergarten, workmen's comp ("greatly increased demand for safety appliances"), Prohibition, the traction plough, the Panama Canal, "The terrible world-upheaval through which we have just passed...the great war", the resulting inflation of the pound, passports, the SS Imperator, the Bolshevik revolution, the "roar of the city", buses, the League of Nations, and so on.

The crucial thing about this litany is that not one of this astounding list of innovations owes anything to Guillaume, Stark, Planck, Barkla, the Braggs, Laue, or Onnes. Then, even more than now, applied science rode on the coat-tails of basic science from generations before.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#272
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> anarcho-capitalists are not pro social hierarchy Are you sure about that? I mean, I believe they don't explicitly argue for it. But the ones I've come across seem to be practically in favor of the sort of wealth concentration and freedom of the rich to do as they please that they seem to be effectively in favor of strong social hierarchy.

Some of them are natural law types and some are definitely misanthropic but they are all opposed to central authority and hierarchy. The high concentration of wealth we see today seems to be met with Teo main responses by the more well read ancaps I know. They either view it as the result of government capture or in some cases the reward for finding a great idea first. I think it’s a weak spot for them ideologically,…

Interesting. Thanks for the reply.

In which case, it sounds like they're perfectly ok with authority and hierarchy as long as they see it as "fairly" achieved via amassing wealth in ways that they deem moral, yes?

I'd certainly agree that's a weakness, in that it really seems to undercut the "anarcho" portion.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#273
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of them are natural law types and some are definitely misanthropic but they are all opposed to central authority and hierarchy. The high concentration of wealth we see today seems to be met with Teo main responses by the more well read ancaps I know. They either view it as the result of government capture or in some cases the reward for finding a great idea first. I think it’s a weak spot for them ideologically,…

Interesting. Thanks for the reply. In which case, it sounds like they're perfectly ok with authority and hierarchy as long as they see it as "fairly" achieved via amassing wealth in ways that they deem moral, yes? I'd certainly agree that's a weakness, in that it really seems to undercut the "anarcho" portion.

I think they'd see it as fine as long as you don't come to it by force, either your own or the government's. Generally these folks seem to think that in a free market that it's easy to be toppled by upstarts and hard to become very large without the state helping you. Would that be the case? I have no clue.

I mean, anarchy is about removing the central state first and foremost. The economics bit is where these folks differ from the traditional anarchists.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#274
post #216

This resonates with my own experience. It's an interesting perspective which requires a re-definition of the word 'elite'. I think the root of the problem is that value creation and value capturing are independent from each other. A well-functioning economic system should be designed in such a way that the two are intertwined such that an individual cannot capture value from the system without first creating at least…

Open source isn't about value capture. It's about doing awesome things that make people happy. When you do that good things inevitably happen plus it helps if you're coming from a place of security due to how you're sharing your inner creativity to enrich the world. That's how most of the big leaps managed to happen historically. Imagine an ancient agrarian society that produces a surplus of food. People who were har…

Not everyone has the luxury to engage in open source for fun. For some people, open source is the only way for them to compete with big tech and their army of marketers. It's a way to reduce margins to 0 in order to have any chance to compete.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#275
Interesting.

I am one of the people the author talks about. I studied mathematics, then became a programmer (though I never chased 0,01 per cent advantages in stock markets), now I am a writer who also programs something from time to time.

One of the reasons why I didn't stay in science and started doing other things was that most of the fruit seemed to be hanging really high. With the entire humanity doing more and more research for decades, it is much harder to find interesting unsolved problems that aren't devilishly complicated than, say, 70 or 100 years ago.

This is something that the author seems to ignore. Writing a new book or developing a new application or feature is a satisfying feeling, because you gave birth to something complete and beautiful. Discovering a minor property of some algebraic group does not feel anywhere as good, unless you by some chance stumble upon something really unexpected and big. Which most researchers never do.

The second problem is the academia. The academia is beset by weird personal vendettas and vicious fights for relatively small grants. I didn't like that environment.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#276
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but historically great advances in theoretical physics have usually followed great advances in experimental apparatus.

Like Einstein or Newton? Theoretical physics tends to be way ahead of experimental physics, it took 50 years from higgs boson existing as a theory to finding traces of the higgs boson in the LHC etc. Physics is done using the true scientific method. First you make a theory, then you make experiments to test the theory. Theoretical physicists made a theory and proposed some possible experiments to test it. Then 50 yea…

Yes, like Einstein or Newton.

Einstein's work on relativity (01905) was inspired by the Michelson-Morley experiment (01887), less than 20 years before, and its many improved replications. His work on the photoelectric effect was inspired by Hertz's experimental discovery of it (also 01887), followed by numerous further experiments which clarified the nature of the effect. Although Brownian motion had been observed, in some sense, since Lucretius (00060 BCE), Brown's 01827 observations under a microscope less than a century before were crucial to Einstein's theorizing about it.

Newton's work on orbital mechanics, which gave rise to understanding of universal gravitation (published 01687 but finished years earlier), derived from Kepler's laws of planetary motion (01621, say) and his published tables of planetary observations (01627), the Tabulae Rudolphinae. Not coincidentally, Kepler is also known for his dramatic improvements in the tele-scope, but much of the improvement in the Tabulae was actually due to the meticulous work done at the pre-telescope observatory of his predecessor Brahe, a huge stone structure.

Certainly the traffic between theoretical physics and experimental physics is not entirely a one-way flow from experiment to theory; that would lead only to the sort of overfitting we find in Ptolemy. But neither is it, as you paint it, entirely a one-way flow from theory to experiment.

It's probably true that we aren't going to resolve the problem of quantum gravity, dark matter, or consciousness with experiments, because our theories aren't good enough to design the experiments yet. But turbulence, magnetohydrodynamics, and especially quantum computers are eminently subject to experiment.

(Although I disagree with your comment, it certainly seems to be made in good faith, so I deplore the knuckle-draggers who are downvoting it.)

Re: Elite Underproduction

#277
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretical physics just needs pencil and paper. If you do the more computation heavy parts of theoretical physics then add a computer as well.

It requires collaboration and mentorship too. These don’t scale super well.

No, but they do scale exponentially. Consider a random mathematician from a century ago, who I selected because he had a student in common with Sierpinski: https://www.genealogy.math.ndsu.nodak.edu/id.php?id=15165

Rajchman had two students, one of whom (Antoni Zygmund, who also studied under Mazurkiewicz, and founded the Chicago school of analysis) had 40 students, five of whom had over 100 students of their own. 18 of those 40 had at least one student of their own. Consequently Rajchman had 1658 descendants in only a century, a mentorship growth rate of 7.7% per year despite Rajchman himself having his career cut short by being murdered by the Nazis in 01940 and apparently ceasing to mentor anyone officially for the previous 15 years of his career.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#278
post #252
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe what we need is cheaper physics apparatus so you don't need a physics professorship or a big lab to advance the state of human knowledge. You aren't going to scale down the LHC to fit under your bed when you aren't using it, but you could surely fit an XRF, ICP-AES, AFM, and maybe an optical bench in there. For a while I worked at a satellite company whose first cleanroom was made only a few years back by cover…

Scientific apparatus is by definition “pre-engineering.” It’s low volume and generally designed by a few people with no BOM optimization. OTOH, everything that’s engineered is generally just EE or optics lab stuff that’s already high volume and aggressively cost optimized. Good luck making a cheap MBE or dilution fridge, and good luck making a 10 GHz oscilloscope cheaper.

I've been seeing a lot of 3-D printed FDM parts showing up in labs in recent years. Of course you can't 3-D print an MBE or FIB, but maybe you could automate the manufacturing of some significant apparatus to the point where you really could download a cutfile from Thingiverse, cut it out on a CNC plasma table, and have it MIG-welded together by robots, so that, like custom T-shirts or FDM-printable parts, it can be cheap even without being high-volume. Even some high-vacuum apparatus might be accessible by that kind of route. A friend of mine has been doing a lot of optics fabrication via UV stereolithography.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#279
post #278
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scientific apparatus is by definition “pre-engineering.” It’s low volume and generally designed by a few people with no BOM optimization. OTOH, everything that’s engineered is generally just EE or optics lab stuff that’s already high volume and aggressively cost optimized. Good luck making a cheap MBE or dilution fridge, and good luck making a 10 GHz oscilloscope cheaper.

I've been seeing a lot of 3-D printed FDM parts showing up in labs in recent years. Of course you can't 3-D print an MBE or FIB, but maybe you could automate the manufacturing of some significant apparatus to the point where you really could download a cutfile from Thingiverse, cut it out on a CNC plasma table, and have it MIG-welded together by robots, so that, like custom T-shirts or FDM-printable parts, it can be…

I really detest the word "just." It's the ultimate signifier that someone hasn't properly engaged with a problem.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#280
post #277
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It requires collaboration and mentorship too. These don’t scale super well.

No, but they do scale exponentially. Consider a random mathematician from a century ago, who I selected because he had a student in common with Sierpinski: https://www.genealogy.math.ndsu.nodak.edu/id.php?id=15165 Rajchman had two students, one of whom (Antoni Zygmund, who also studied under Mazurkiewicz, and founded the Chicago school of analysis) had 40 students, five of whom had over 100 students of their own. 18…

Yes but the exponential scaling doesn't really work to anyone's benefit. It just means that N people can each mentor an average of N people and so on and so forth. An active community means that the people who are working on the problems can all share results and bring people up to speed. I'm not convinced THIS scales well.

I can buy more people in physics working on more problems. There are a wealth of interesting problems in physics and more people all going in different directions would be great. But ten times as many people working on the LHC? A hundred times as many people working on string theory? I don't buy it.

To me, the ideal model of fully open, accessible research is the speedrunning community. I don't see speedrunning as all that different from experimental work. You probe, you hypothesize, you have breakthroughs, you compete in what's generally a pretty healthy way, and you communicate and document. Look at how this scales, how many people get in and get obsessed, etc. To really master quantum hall, you need to have have a devotion to the field that's comparable to "completing Super Mario 64 with half an A press."

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